Could I be wrong? I wont lie, it has happened in the past. I do not think I am in this case.
I know the limits of the 12PR300. It will not surpass an 810.
I know the limits of the 12PR300. It will not surpass an 810.
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Boom Bass Cabinets?
- Thread starter telecopy
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Since you could, why the hard stance... again? I honestly don't get it.
Then you should also know that Ian didn't say that. Details make all of the difference.
You were wrong about the Glasstone. Based on what you thought the limits of this same driver were. So you clearly didn't know the limits of the 12PR300 drivers. Only the limits of what you have been able to do with them (no offense, just saying). There's a difference. If Drue had been constrained by the supposed limits he wouldn't have come up with this cabinet. And that would've been a shame.
People who think they are limited typically won't even try to exceed those limits. Sometimes it's probably better to not know better.
- Nov 24, 2008
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- Disclosures
- Owner & designer, AudioKinesis; Auth. mfg, Big E (Home Audio only)
Since you could, why the hard stance... again? I honestly don't get it.
Then you should also know that Ian didn't say that. Details make all of the difference.
You were wrong about the Glasstone. Based on what you thought the limits of this same driver were. So you clearly didn't know the limits of the 12PR300 drivers. Only the limits of what you have been able to do with them (no offense, just saying). There's a difference. If Drue had been constrained by the supposed limits he wouldn't have come up with this cabinet. And that would've been a shame.
People who think they are limited typically won't even try to exceed those limits. Sometimes it's probably better to not know better.
Support your cab with technical information. Your anecdotal, "experienced" based statements are beyond worthless. They are detrimental to small shop/boutique builders everywhere. You not only water down the product you are selling, you make it more difficult for straight forward designers to be taken seriously.
Yeah, I just added that, Duke. I was never an official Brubaker endorsee (I bought all of my basses) but because I had a close relationship with Kevin as a friend I had to disclose by putting Brubaker Guitars up. Figured I might as well do the same for the BBC line.
As of last August I started officially working with Brubaker as a contractor.
Drue Williams is a good friend of mine and I'm helping him in much the same way I helped Sammie Glass with his Glasstone Lil G cabs... general industry knowledge, live testing, making suggestions based on what the current market is looking for, letting him know what his competition is and helping figuring out how to be competitive with it. We talk a lot and bounce ideas off each other... my suggestions are just that, suggestions... he doesn't have to do anything I suggest. And just as with my relationship with Sammie, I don't charge anything for this help. I have an electronics, music, corporate sales, IT and marketing background. Neither of us are speaker designers... but we know what we like and what issues we run into as professional musicians. I guess that's what allows us to try things others wouldn't because they "know" they "can't" work. We don't consider pushing the envelope a waste of time. Ultimately I'm helping Drue because he's a friend, I believe in his product and I have skills that can help him.
One of my favorite responses here on TB was when someone said every legitimate speaker was designed by the 1970's. That struck me as odd because there are drivers that didn't even exist back then. The .15 cubic ft. sub in my Miata wasn't around then AFAIK.
I know what the rules are but I also know that things can work that I'd never imagined. We're in the "try it and listen" camp vs. "don't bother, it's not supposed to work".
With the way things are taking off for BBC that could change in the future. So as it is I'm a non-paid consultant.
BTW I don't look at this as a fight. On the one side we have people actually either having heard or gigged a particular piece of kit. And more and more folks are doing that every day. On the other we have folks who don't believe what happened so they're calling BS... again. That's not much of a fight IMO, Duke, especially since they were wrong before and apparently learned nothing from that.
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As opposed to your constant badgering based on your experience?
I'll gladly address these points.
My experience is clearly not worthless to others. I have a solid track record here and IRL as a straight shooter because I am. I don't pump up products I don't like or have no experience with, I don't tear down any products other than those I've had bad experiences with. I have a strong record as an advocate for products I am solely a user of. Yet I've been accused by folks like you of being a snake oil salesman when I've talked about things I've bought and used successfully... because no one would do that for free.
The key component of that is experience... something you don't seem to think matters no matter how many come forward. Yet you seem to feel your lack of experience has worth? You are in effect calling folks liars who have actual experience, despite the fact that you know you could be wrong. Just calling that as I see it.
Anything I say here is not detrimental to small shop/boutique builders. It only reflects on one product line. The only detriment overall is if it works better for bassists than their products. And clearly that has happened. Are you seriously trying to contend that anything we say will water down Baer, Thunderchild, etc.?
The product is not watered down. It is also not a community DIY project so no, we won't be telling everyone how to build one, how we prototyped these, how we worked out bugs, taking pics of the internals, etc.
Frankly I couldn't care less if folks like you take this seriously. You think what you use is the greatest thing and I have no doubt that for you it's true. Trying to tear this down doesn't make your cabs sound in any way better. If straight forward designers spend their time shouting down solutions they couldn't come up with, how seriously should they be taken? Can they learn anything from this approach?
Things aren't always as cut and dried as you clearly need them to be.
Seems intriguing enough to consider a ride to check these out in person. That 1212 has got my attention. I ride up from Richmond to Stafford Co. every Thursday. Might have to arrange a Wednesday trip since they're open until 9. I seriously need to downsize. Not that I have a BIG rig, just a whole bunch of small ones. Aside from sounding great I have only one requirement......it has to fit in the back of a 1st Gen Scion xB without folding the seats down. I can get 2 Shuttle 12s or 2 ABM Mini cabs back there perfectly.
Physics versus Fashion
Physics always wins. No real competition.
Physics always wins. No real competition.
As usual the experts forgot the Lil G. Lol
There's no fashion involved in these cabs other than choice of coverings. So keep talking.
There's no fashion involved in these cabs other than choice of coverings. So keep talking.
The measurements are on Chuck's websites. These are small cabs. Let me know if you head over there, I'd like to hear your opinion on them.
shocked there has been little discussion of the Tank's unusual baffle design, Hathor style porting, nor the low tweeter placement.
I've explained these and I'd guess they're things that people don't have much of a problem with. I'm not familiar with Hathor style, the three vents are for dispersing the bottom driver. The angled baffle and lower tweeter placement are for making close up work more enjoyable vs. having sound shooting past your calves. Just seemed to make sense and IRL they seem to work.
I see the other models have angled "bottoms" so they can tilt back, but that model has a flat bottom and a shelf baffle off the top which looks like it would block the radiation upward of the tweeter. If it does tilt back, I'm not seeing how. Tilting the cab back would help with the low tweeter positioning, but it's placement near the bottom seems like the directional highs would hit you in the ankles.
...ah the photo on the previous page helps with the baffle explanation. The website pic looks like the baffle is at 90 degrees with a shelf over the top. Now I'm seeing the cab is square and the baffle tilts back into the cab. That makes more sense.
- Nov 24, 2008
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- 7,163
- Disclosures
- Owner & designer, AudioKinesis; Auth. mfg, Big E (Home Audio only)
Brad has been fairly defensive towards anyone who tries to analyze these designs, insisting that unless we have heard them, we're unqualified to comment. I asked about his affiliation in hopes that it was official enough that he might reasonably be expected to field questions and comments in a professional manner.
Since you mentioned Hathor style porting, I'll just say that in my opinion what Drue is doing is somewhat different. I use an open-format mid-chamber in my Hathor line to harvest some of the backwave energy off of midrange cones, and I don't think that's going on here - I think he's just providing a pathway for energy off the front side of the downfiring cone.
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Very interesting stance.
Sorry you feel that way, Duke. I don't think I've been defensive, the same people are making the same negative comments that they made with the Glasstones and maybe you weren't privy to the years of naysaying followed by silence. I am reminding them that they're doing it again and suggestion they man up contrary to what they did with the Glasstones should it turn out they are wrong again.
I'll lay out how I'm looking at this situation, I consider this responsive, not defensive... because I didn't do anything I feel that I need to defend.
So who has tried to analyze the cabinets? I may have missed it. So far what I have seen is you saying you tried something similar with the drivers reversed and a ported deployment vs. sealed. Would that really be relevant? I'm genuinely curious.
The other was someone who keeps talking about how very familiar they are with the drivers whose stated attempt was a 22 lb. cab vs. one almost double the weight. Relevancy?
I haven't seen modeling software that would allow someone to model these cabs. The same was true for the Lil G and yet people acted like they could draw conclusions based on modeling. Does that make sense?
You asked about my affiliation and asked nothing afterwards. Right? Was that where I was defensive?
Should they be dismissed without listening? That is what I'm recommending the folks who think they understand EVERYTHING that's going on with these cab and think they can't work should do vs. telling the people that have actually heard them that there's something wrong with them and how they listen.
I honestly haven't seen anyone attempt to analyze these so it would seem a stretch that I'm the one who's defensive about something that hasn't happened. I respect you and your work, show me what I missed. And if I didn't miss it let's talk about that.
Thanks.
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Regarding the venting, I figured something else was going in here. I know the lower frequencies are omnidirectional so the venting on the woofer at the lower position is doing something different from the intent of the Hathor mid vents.
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