Boss ES-8 / ES-5 / MS-3 Users and support group

[xI Jonathan Ix]

Thought I’d jump in here so I could read & keep up on what others do with these awesome Boss devices. Below is my board, I run everything in it’s own loop except the compressor (in front) I send midi PCs to the Neuro Hub for SA pedal scenes and then through to the Le Bass to switch between the clean and dirty channels.

Current first 5 and beyond:
0.1: Le Bass clean
0.2: Le Bass dirty
0.3: Aftershock(Rat clone) > Dirty ch.
0.4: OC-3 poly > Aftershock > Dirty
0.5: Chorus > Clean > Reverb
0.6: Clean > Nemesis double helix > Reverb
0.7: Autowah (C4) > all of 0.3
0.8: Nate Navarro’s Funk Dragon (C4) > (Rat) > Dirty

The tap tempo at the bottom right controls the delay’s hold function.

I realize the ES-8 is overkill here but, I wanted to ‘have it and not need it’ rather than the other way around. I do wonder what benefits I could get out of sending single SA pedal PC changes rather than setting up scenes on each patch where an SA pedal is used. Just from finding this thread, I’m gonna look up how these ‘second functions’ work.

Cheers folks
Love your custom board @GMC

 

[Gsnorgathon]

Overkill shmoverkill. Extremism in the pursuit of tone is no vice!

 

[GuitarWolf]

Hey @GMC
Great thread. Question for you.... Say I want my ES-5 setup as:
1. Drive 1
2. Drive 2
3. Compressor
4. EQ
5. Delay

The ES-5 behavior I want is to allow my drives to be turned on/off via loops separately from the effects pedals. Without using the Manual Mode, is it possible to program for the following scenario:

I program the es-5 such that when I select (turn on) drive 1 loop, then drive 2 loop is off and vice versa. Loops 3-5 on/off states are not changed (they could be set to be either on or off).

Now, the tricky part, if I have drive 1 loop on, and then I engage Compressor loop 3 on, is it possible for the the es-5 loop 3 switch to know the current state (on or off) of drive 1 loop (and to let that state persist)?

Bonus question: If I program drive 1 and drive 2 to be a toggle state of es-5 switch 1, is it possible to recall the specific toggle state from an external midi controller? (I can recall a program change from an external midi controller, but I don’t see any midi implementation charts for the es-5 anywhere).

Cheers!
P.S. I am a guitar player, I hope that doesn't disqualify me for membership on this forum!

 

[GMC]

Hey @GMC
Great thread. Question for you.... Say I want my ES-5 setup as:
1. Drive 1
2. Drive 2
3. Compressor
4. EQ
5. Delay

The ES-5 behavior I want is to allow my drives to be turned on/off via loops separately from the effects pedals. Without using the Manual Mode, is it possible to program for the following scenario:

I program the es-5 such that when I select (turn on) drive 1 loop, then drive 2 loop is off and vice versa. Loops 3-5 on/off states are not changed (they could be set to be either on or off).

Now, the tricky part, if I have drive 1 loop on, and then I engage Compressor loop 3 on, is it possible for the the es-5 loop 3 switch to know the current state (on or off) of drive 1 loop (and to let that state persist)?

Bonus question: If I program drive 1 and drive 2 to be a toggle state of es-5 switch 1, is it possible to recall the specific toggle state from an external midi controller? (I can recall a program change from an external midi controller, but I don’t see any midi implementation charts for the es-5 anywhere).

Cheers!
P.S. I am a guitar player, I hope that doesn't disqualify me for membership on this forum!

Lets choose patch 2.
Within the patch, you disable the Mute and patch 2 button (we are going to re-assign their functions)
You create an assign that sets Button 2 to switch off/on loop 1 and another assign that switches on/off Loop 2. Manually engage one of the drive loops and save (so they are out of step). When you engage patch 2, one of the drives will engage. Click on button 2 again and the loops will on/off, effectively swapping them.
Now comes the cleaver bit. Create an assign that switches on your Compressor loop. So that at any time you can add the compressor as a layer.
The ES-5 fully supports Midi PC change and CC Changes. I use a Source Audio Aftertshock and Ultrawave in a similar fashion (although both of mine are in the same loop). I use Midi to switch between them. My base patch calls up a Neuro Hub Scene for the Aftershock (it doesn't support PC Change) and a PC change to call up a specific patch on my Ultrawave. With my rig, I have re-mapped my Mute and bank buttons for patches 2-5 on each bank. These buttons always engage my Source Audio Luna (modulation) and Source Audio C4.

 

[GMC]

Ah, thank you. I'll have to ponder on things...not that it's been hard to just toggle between two patches. My weighing process will end up being more about: on a live stage how much tech detail assigns/reassigns will I have to remember...in the moment I often work best with the most simple options and pedals that take hold clicks or multiple button combinations aren't a great thing. It even took me a bit to get used to not just hitting the same button for on/off and instead remember that my #5 is my all clean/all off button!

I'm sure SA will figure it out. For me having to use the hub to program/save/hold stuff for the Aftershock is a bummer. I'd much rather just do that straight to pedal, and have the pedal hold all the MIDI patches. But then, I'm fussy. I was also psyched at the prospect of the Collider only to find that it didn't have any of the sounds/options that would have been most useful to me. I had hoped it would be a fairly compact solution to me carrying both the Timeline and a separate pedal for reverbs.

I recently had a board swap around and I've placed my Aftershock and Ultrawave in the same loop. I've set the patch assigns so that I can toggle between the two dirt pedals by re-pushing the patch button. So yes it works great.

 

[GMC]

My Current layout:

 

[GuitarWolf]

Lets choose patch 2.
Within the patch, you disable the Mute and patch 2 button (we are going to re-assign their functions)
You create an assign that sets Button 2 to switch off/on loop 1 and another assign that switches on/off Loop 2. Manually engage one of the drive loops and save (so they are out of step). When you engage patch 2, one of the drives will engage. Click on button 2 again and the loops will on/off, effectively swapping them.
Now comes the cleaver bit. Create an assign that switches on your Compressor loop. So that at any time you can add the compressor as a layer.
The ES-5 fully supports Midi PC change and CC Changes. I use a Source Audio Aftertshock and Ultrawave in a similar fashion (although both of mine are in the same loop). I use Midi to switch between them. My base patch calls up a Neuro Hub Scene for the Aftershock (it doesn't support PC Change) and a PC change to call up a specific patch on my Ultrawave. With my rig, I have re-mapped my Mute and bank buttons for patches 2-5 on each bank. These buttons always engage my Source Audio Luna (modulation) and Source Audio C4.

Thanks for the info. I have a non midi-comp and a non-midi booster, so my thought was to place them in a Morningstar ML5 or VL Hex as a nested loop, then trigger the effect loops on/off via midi.

I don't want to throw money at the problem if there is a solution that already exists.
So, thank you for your thoughts. Did you have any thoughts on the toggle via midi scenario?

 

[GMC]

Thanks for the info. I have a non midi-comp and a non-midi booster, so my thought was to place them in a Morningstar ML5 or VL Hex as a nested loop, then trigger the effect loops on/off via midi.

I don't want to throw money at the problem if there is a solution that already exists.
So, thank you for your thoughts. Did you have any thoughts on the toggle via midi scenario?

I don't understand your "toggle" question. Midi switch loopers aren't a mathematical programme model with IF and ELSE statements. It's a series of button dependant switch commands or Loop switches. If you send a loop command activated by a button, it changes it's loop state from what ever it was, either on/off. It's not self aware and can't send a state based output to another loop. This is true of all Midi controllers and Midi Loop switchers. With the Boss units they are combined into a single device that does both. I like this approach because I only need to power and configure one device. It also only uses one midi channel, my board is currently using 13 midi channels and I don't have many left.

 

[GuitarWolf]

I am talking about the behavior you discussed earlier in this thread

"My first 5 patches are my most used. With each patch, the patch button has a secondary function assigned. So push it once to call up the patch, push it a 2nd time and it activates a 2nd feature (loop toggle etc)"

If we trigger that patch via midi, the patch is executed. If we send the same PC message a second time, will the secondary toggle execute?

 

[datamouth]

Hey guys, nice to meet everyone I'm new here. I use an es8 for my set up. I recently bought a Source Audio C4 to replace my Micro Pog. I basically use a combination of polyphonic presets on the C4 which its something i could not do with the Micro Pog.

I have a question, maybe you guys can help me out.

I use Meris pedals with the Meris Midi I/O to be able to control their presets with my es-8. Its very straight forward, for example i have Mercury 7 set to midi channel 1, then i recall that pedal and its preset thru midi with the ES-8. My issue is with Source Audios Neuro Hub. I set the midi channel on the C4 to channel 6, but when i try to recall the pedal and one of its 128 presets nothing happens. I later realized that the Neuro Hub has its own midi channel, for it can also save midi presets, or what it SA calls "scenes" to it.

I have the SA C4 pedal and the SA Vertigo Tremolo pedal both connected to the Neuro Hub but my ES-8 will not control any presets on them. I can however control the Neuro Hub with midi by accessing its "Scenes" but this is a problem for it recalls the state of all the pedals connected to it.

I just want to be able to control my Source Audio with the Neuro Hub pedals individually like i do my Meris pedals with the Meris Midi I/O hub.

Sorry for the ramble but i tried to explain my set up in the best way possible and i cant get any help from the Source Audio guys.

ill attach a pic of my set up (without the Source Audio pedals on it) just to share.

 

[GMC]

The C4 doesn’t support Midi PC commands, but it does support patch change via midi CC. Set up a CC in your C4’s midi map. There’s two options, patch recall engaged and patch recall un-engaged. My C4 has this set to CC 104 and 103 respectively. The CC value determines which patch is to be changed (0-128).
So this would look something like Ch (C4), Midi CC 103, value (patch number).

Your vertigo is slightly different because it’s using an older hardware platform. This device doesn’t support any patch changing via midi PC or CC. You can change the engine but not the 6 presets. The only way to do this is to set up 6 neuro hub scenes exactly like your 6 Vertigo’s presets. You then use Midi PC to change the Neuro Hub’s scene number. I have a similar situation with my SA lunar and SA Aftershock. My SA Ultrawave does support midi PC and CC.

 

[GMC]

So this would look something like Ch (C4), Midi CC 103, value (patch number). In my case, my C4 is set to Midi Ch 7. So I set up an ES-5 patch where Midi 1, Ch 7, CC 103, Val 114. This sends a CC to my C4 to change patch to 114 (my C4 is maxxed out with patches) and set the pedal to be bypassed (un-engaged). I then use a remap of the patch number button to send a engage / disengage CC command (Assign 1) to my C4 so I can switch it on/off by re-pressing the patch number stomp button on my ES-5. Effectively toggling it. I use a similar idea with my Aftershock and Ultrawave where I toggle between the two pedals via midi CC Assign commands.

The only SA pedals that offer Midi PC changes are the Ultrawave and EQ2.
Every pedal that has 128 internal presets have the ability to use CC commands to change patch (as detailed above). Every pedal that is older and has only 6 internal presets have no midi preset change capability (only engine change). If you want to change presets, you have to use Neuro hub scenes. You could have one hub for each pedal...but it's quite easy to create scenes that set up multiple pedal presets. I use both methods and I like the flexibility of calling up a patch on my ES-5...using a scene on my Hub...then flick through the 6 patches on my Lunar or the 6 patches on my spectrum or C4 as optional / easy to flick addional presets. It works well for me.

 

[datamouth]

Hey thank you so much for the super quick response and thank you for clearing this up for me. I will definitely try this out! I will keep you updated on the results. And thank so much again!

 

[4Mal]

Here's my current board as of today 12th Jan 2021:
View attachment 4124649
My board is 2 tier and has an "under-croft". This is quite an old photo, but It's not changed much under there for a while:
View attachment 4124653

I hadn't looked closely at your board lately... The 2 layer thing is way cool but what I really dig is the rabbet and dado joinery. Very stylish!

 

[4Mal]

How are the on-board effects in the ES system? Specifically Chorus, Flange and Octave Down ... Is there an onboard hpf ? I generally insert an hpf before a sub-octave to clean up the glitchy'ness down low when playing live Thanks for taking my call, I'll take my answer off line!

 

[cosmicevan]

Not to rain on the parade but to rain on the parade...


There is a known issue with the ES line (ES-8 definitely, not sure about others). Parts corrode over time and there becomes volume loss.

Not everyone experiences it but it's a good probability per the Roland repair person I spoke with and even if you get repaired it can happen again.

Just thought I'd put it out there as I had a very expensive piece of gear become a very expensive piece of garbage.

Hope no one else encounters it, but if you are first looking, give morningstar a look. I am extremely happy with their stuff since my ES-8 crapped the bed.

 

[Alien8]

Not to rain on the parade but to rain on the parade...


There is a known issue with the ES line (ES-8 definitely, not sure about others). Parts corrode over time and there becomes volume loss.

Not everyone experiences it but it's a good probability per the Roland repair person I spoke with and even if you get repaired it can happen again.

Just thought I'd put it out there as I had a very expensive piece of gear become a very expensive piece of garbage.

Hope no one else encounters it, but if you are first looking, give morningstar a look. I am extremely happy with their stuff since my ES-8 crapped the bed.

From all of the searching I can do, I've found that this issue is ES-8 specific and appears to be two FETS that are not effectively protected from Electrostatic Discharge. They apparently partially engage the mute function on failure.

I have not fixed one, but most people with soldering skills could fix it, or guide a tech towards where to look. There are two fets tied to the mute switch that are apparently the culprits, at least according to the gear page thread that you were trying to sell yours in. Depending on the location, any expensive repair is likely in the disassembly and reassembly process.

Morningstar stuff looks cool, but they don't have loop order switching or parallel paths which is a BIG part of the ES-5 appeal for me.

 

[Gsnorgathon]

Keep your eyes peeled for the Morningstar ML10X, which will let you re-order your loops. Currently there are no plans for parallel signals, but it sounds promising.

 

[Turtle71]

How are the on-board effects in the ES system? Specifically Chorus, Flange and Octave Down ... Is there an onboard hpf ? I generally insert an hpf before a sub-octave to clean up the glitchy'ness down low when playing live Thanks for taking my call, I'll take my answer off line!

Neither the ES-5 nor ES-8 come with onboard effects, I've owned the ES-5, and I have to say it's an outstanding piece of kit even sans effects.

I currently own the MS-3, overall I like the sounds I get out of it, the effects are the usual Boss tones we've all heard, nothing ground breaking, but most everything is useable and sounds good, the chorus is great, the octave down is pretty good too (Though I don't use it), and I've never messed around with the Flanger, it has one, but I can't comment on the quality.

I use mine mostly for modulation (mostly chorus), some noise gate and the occasion early chain comp, autowah, and the "slow gear" patch, all of my dirt comes from the Aftershock, and my synth comes from the C4 (both controlled via midi).

I don't think there is a HPF in there, if there is, I've never stumbled across it, though admittedly I wasn't looking for it.

One thing to consider, minor for some, major for others....The MS-3 does not let you move the loops individually like the ES-5 or ES-8, instead you move them as a "block"...I've not been bothered too much by this, but considering you can do it in the ES-5 & ES-8, I've always thought Boss dropped the ball there...As a "trade off" though, the MS-3 is the only one of the 3 that has PC editing, obviously for effects, but also for all the routing and control functions, which is huge for me.

 

[Alien8]

Keep your eyes peeled for the Morningstar ML10X, which will let you re-order your loops. Currently there are no plans for parallel signals, but it sounds promising.

Interesting read, thanks!

It sounds possible to hack some parallel routes using stereo pedals when needed. Interesting to see where this will go. Having some extra or stereo loops would help in a few routing ideas.

I wonder what cabling will support the layout with the TRS jack array in such tight spacing?

I'm still super happy with my ES-5.