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Double Bass broken feel

N

neroantico

Jan 23, 2004
59
2
56
italy, milan
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#1
Dear friends

i'm struggling to devolp e broken feel. It's not that i dont' listen to the masters, but i feel i don't have some solid tools.

my sense of One it's like a black hole: too often i struggle to play over the bars phrases; if i foucus on counting my harmony sucks...

I'm interested in your thoughts about practice and theory behind this role. i've read a chapter in Mike Downes jazz bass line book, i'd like to know more...

thank you for your time.

Giovanni
 
#2
It's usually easier to learn stuff like this by just listening to guys who do it. Check out some Scott Lafaro, Gary Peacock, Dave Holland, Eddie Gomez, Larry Grenadier, Thomas Morgan etc. to hear how a 'broken' feel can get used in a real musical situation. It'd probably be a good idea to lift what they're doing note for note and go through a period of straight up imitation to get yourself comfortable with it.

Hope that helps.
 
#4
When I was on tour I went to the Picasso museum in Barcelona. There they have many of his early works. To my surprise some of his early works were absolutely incredible portraits. Photographic almost. The exhibit was set up chronologically. It was until later that he started to abstract. That always stuck with me. You have to have something to abstract from otherwise the abstraction just looks or sounds contrived.
 
#6
When I asked that question, Tom Baldwin told me to picture playing a bass part that was like a horn background for a big band chart.

I'm sure that's not the only way TBal plays broken time (or me either) but maybe the suggestion will help you bust out of that rut.
 
#7
A lot of times you can create the broken feel by a reduction of parts. Try this:
Play a 4/4 walking line at a Slow to Medium Tempo (you can use a metronome on 2 and 4 if you like)
Now, play 8th note triplets on some of the beats (maybe 2 and 4 for a start).
Now, leave out the first triplet, second triplet, third triplet, different combinations, etc.
This should help you get a general feel for this.
The most important thing about a broken feel is to not lose the underlying subdivisions (i.e. triplets in swing, straight 8ths in Latin, 16ths in Funk) when you play.
+1 on growing into this from working on Straight Time first and listening to drummers. I'll add Elvin Jones to the list.
 
#8
fingers said:
When I was on tour I went to the Picasso museum in Barcelona. There they have many of his early works. To my surprise some of his early works were absolutely incredible portraits. Photographic almost. The exhibit was set up chronologically. It was until later that he started to abstract. That always stuck with me. You have to have something to abstract from otherwise the abstraction just looks or sounds contrived.
Click to expand...

Giovanni. This is my oblique way of saying you have to be expert at playing straight time before you can effectively abstract. Time has to just be in you. No amount of counting will help. I'd say you need to keep it straight until you can feel it like it is your own heartbeat. Breaking it up will almost come naturally then. The goal is always to move the music forward. Straight time or broken.
 
#9
I kind of agree. You can always tell the difference between a guy who can kill the time in a straight ahead setting who chooses to break it up versus a guy who breaks it up all the time out of neccessity. The former always keeps the groove regardless of how abstract things get, and the latter sounds like a college kid who's trying to sound clever instead of sounding good.
 
#11
- not that there's anything wrong with being a college kid, but what what I'm trying to say that sometimes in jazz (IMHO) there's more focus (for whatever reason)on sounding hip and "tricking" people than there is on making great music.
 
#12
You can gain a lot by playing something you know well, like a blues. Using either a metronome or a play along cd (they are great for this) play only half notes for a while. Do it long enough that you can make convincing lines out of just half notes. Then do it a while longer. When that is sounding solid, try playing a chourus or two with the half notes on two and four, still connected in a nice line. Feel where you want to anticipate the next chord with your note choice and where you have your note for the change happening on two of the bar. What matters here is what YOU are finding out. I don't know whether to call this begining to internalize the time, or externalizing it to the point where it exists no matter what you play. Either metphor can work.
When both sets of half notes start to become natural to you (this may take some time), play yet more choruses mixing the two of them. You want to still solidly feel the line connecting the changes, still feel a solid pulse. Play alongs can help you hear what your doing because they keep playing the form no matter how unweildy your initial efforts are.
Play choruses using dotted half notes. See what that does for you. Notice that everything here involves playing LESS notes than you were when playing quarter notes? The intention is to get you to leave space, listen, still feel the time and form, and when you do play to put good notes right where they should be.
So far it's worked well for my students and it's improved their quarter notes as well. Try it.
 
#13
Jonny Mah said:
I kind of agree. You can always tell the difference between a guy who can kill the time in a straight ahead setting who chooses to break it up versus a guy who breaks it up all the time out of neccessity. The former always keeps the groove regardless of how abstract things get, and the latter sounds like a college kid who's trying to sound clever instead of sounding good.
Click to expand...

LOL. broken vs. broke-assed
 
#15
Chris Symer said:
You can gain a lot by playing something you know well, like a blues. Using either a metronome or a play along cd (they are great for this) play only half notes for a while. Do it long enough that you can make convincing lines out of just half notes.
Click to expand...
I do something similar when I'm learning new tunes. I work through the melody with the metronome. Once I begin to get comfortable with the melody, I start playing the chord changes as whole notes (with the metronome still going). From whole notes I move on to half notes, quarter notes, and then subdivisions (as Roy mentioned earlier).

Its really helped me with my time.
 
#16
Thank you all for your inputs and support.

This broken feel is now just a study approach for me.
I will never experiment on stage until i feel ready.

i consider this as another tool to serve music.

I have further questions:
When in your opinion 'music calls for it'?
What if drums are straight anyway?can i relate on piano/guitar to comp together?

Giovanni
 
#17
Boy. It's really hard to tell you when it is appropriate. Again don't decide. It comes naturally when you start to hear it.

The goal of any bassline is to drive the tune forward. The trick is the broken line creates a different kind of push. To me it is all about contrast.

I will say this. Often broken stuff, polyrhythms, crossrhythms, etc. are more effective to my ear if they have something to pull against. That is to say if someone else is playing straight. If you are playing 3 over 4 and everyone goes with you then the tune is now in 3.

I have an example from a gig I recorded last night that I will post in a bit where we do lots of broken time stuff. I need to edit it first though, it is on my H2 still.
 

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