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BT's gun question thread.

#21
Now for rifles. There's two rifle designs; bullpup and classic. Here's a good pic.

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Bullpup:
Steyr AUG (my favorite)
Britain's L85A1
France's FAMAS

Classic:
AR Variants (M16, M4 Etc.)
AK Series
Sig Series

Now i'm too lazy to explain the calibres, check out that website. I'll just say 5.56 is lighter so you can carry more, but less powerful. 7.62 are good, but heavy. They kick more too.
 
#22
Petary791 said:
.22 Calibre (9x19)- Low stopping power, high penetration. Examples are Glock 17/18C/19/26 (and more,) M9, MP5, Uzi, and Luger.
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.22 caliber is NOT 9x19. 9x19 and 9mm are the same thing. .22 is much smaller. The 9mm bullet has an outside diameter of .355".

.40 Calibre- Low stopping power, high penetration again. I shot one of these, it was a revolver, and it kicked like a fscking beast. Example is a revolver. These things can supposedly go for like a mile. I can't think of any SMG's.

.45 Calibre- High stopping power, low penetration. This thing will blow a huge hole in you. Good example is the famous Colt 1911 and the UMP .45 SMG.

.50AE Calibre- Fscking huge. It will own anything. Examples would be the Desert Eagle (Israel; only holds 6 rounds) and some revolvers (only holds 5 rounds.)

5.7x28mm Calibre- Basically a shortened rifle bullet. The only example is the Five-seveN. The P90 uses the same bullets.
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Wow man...if there's anything I can say for sure it's that you have a lot to say about firearms and ammo for someone who obviously doesn't know much about the topic. I don't know where you're getting this "stopping power" thing but it's laughable. While the do make .40 revolvers (the full name is .40 S&W) they are most typically found in semi-auto form. Examples are Glock 22, 23, 24, 27, etc... They make a .40 model in most popular pistols such as H&K USP, Sig Sauer, Beretta, etc...

Saying any caliber will "own anything" is just ignorant.

I will cover rifles in a bit.
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Can't wait.

brad cook
 
#23
Petary791 said:
Now for rifles. There's two rifle designs; bullpup and classic. Here's a good pic.

Invalid Link Removed

Bullpup:
Steyr AUG (my favorite)
Britain's L85A1
France's FAMAS

Classic:
AR Variants (M16, M4 Etc.)
AK Series
Sig Series

Now i'm too lazy to explain the calibres, check out that website. I'll just say 5.56 is lighter so you can carry more, but less powerful. 7.62 are good, but heavy. They kick more too.
Click to expand...


There are far more than two rifle designs. Classic?! Are we talking rifles or soft drinks?

brad cook
 
#25
Petary791 said:
Um.

That's what the website said.

Sorry. If you want me to delete my posts, just tell me... Just trying to help. Some of that stuff I was told by an ex-Ranger and a P.I. No need to get angry. :rolleyes:
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Not angry man, just shaking my head and wondering why someone who doesn't know anything about guns is attempting to answer gun questions. Which parts were you told by an ex-ranger? And it doesn't take gun knowledge to be a PI. In fact many police officers don't even know all that much about guns.

brad cook
 
#28
People who should have guns:
burninrubber4.jpg

:cool:
People who should not have guns:
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:D

(only kidding)
 
#30
DigMe said:
Oh yeah! You're talking about the single-action revolvers that have the western look. The double actions have the more modern look.

And there are plenty of other models from Ruger, Taurus, S&W and others that are more modern and are hammerless or have shrouded hammers. The shrouded hammer models are usual snub nose revolvers. They range in price from 300 bucks to over a grand. Ruger and S&W are good.

brad cook
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Thanks for the leads, Brad.

I'm not too big on the snubzone, but the 627 Hunter led to a page that had some good pics of other S&Ws. I can't find any of these on the S&W site but they are the closest to the picture in my head of all the revolvers I've seen.

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#31
So... Hollywood folks who have no need for firearms and no experience with them should own guns & regular "Joes" who grew up in rural Kentucky using them daily shouldn't. Right.

Brad, maybe I'm not familiar with what's apparently called an "energy dump." I agree with everything you said, but I can't figure out what you're implying is so wrong with what I said. These threads are always a lost cause.
 
#32
Mike A said:
Brad, maybe I'm not familiar with what's apparently called an "energy dump." I agree with everything you said, but I can't figure out what you're implying is so wrong with what I said. These threads are always a lost cause.
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Basically when people talk about kinetic energy damage or an "energy dump" they are referring to a "shockwave" that precedes the bullet and supposedly does damage before the bullet even makes it to that point. That doesn't occur in pistol bullets. With pistol bullets the actual damage is only done by crushing and cutting as a result of contact with the bullet. The energy created by a pistol bullet is not sufficient to cause damage via "shockwave."

brad cook
 
#33
Ah.. that makes it much more clear. Thanks. What I was referring to was simply the effect of the projectile's energy being dumped into the body it collides with, the same way that billiard balls react to a cue ball. I wasn't aware of the energy dump® theory.
 
#34
A couple of comments on Petary's "contreversial" post. First it wasn't that bad, a little bit over gennerallizing. Brad, I didn't notice any comparison to the .22 with the 9 mm. I'm not a big fan of the 9, basically I think there just .38 special semis when it comes to stopping power. But at the distances most civillians will shoot at for protection they are more then adequite. The .40 cal which is by far the most popular police round and it's cousin the .357 sig are the products of police politics, most police dept.s don't like .45s because of single action triggers (1911s) and saftey issues with old Colt army semis. If I was a beat cop the .40 would be my choice (it's the choice of the FBI Glock 23), lots of ammo, reasonable stopping power. Both the .40 and the .357 sig have one problem, they are fast, and unstable rounds, not inheriently accurate and if you miss the target, God only knows where that round is going to show up. The .40 is available in an SMG (HK UMP) wouldn't want to hold one and shoot it, both the .40 and .357 sig have a snap to there recoil that make them fairley uncomfortble to shoot. The .45 is still the best personal protection round in a handgun (keeping in mind that any gun a person can't handle is no good for them) . I agree with Petary on one thing, these bad boys (.45s) still stop, after many conversations with SRT and patrol officers, a round square in the shoulder with a .45 will put down most perps, a .40 or .357sig may blow thru them and a 9mm is going to require follow up rounds, not the .45. You'll notice that almost all depts set up there SRT guys with .45s its also the choice of the navy seals ( HK mark23) and the US Marines , LAPD SRT (Kimber) the new 1911's Springfield , Kimber are very safe, and police depts are starting to look at them again. The 5 X 7 X .28 is a law enforcement, military only round, with very strict purchasing rules it is available in pistol or SMG from FN, It's primary funtion is a high speed pistol round that will penetrate most body armour. Never seen one in person and there not reel common. As far as the .50 AE it's a hunting round which has been rendered obsolite by the .454. .480 ruger, .500 S & W and the .480 limbaugh. Revolvers are a MUCH more stable platform to shoot these big beast out of. Petary was referring to Military firearms in his conversation about "classic " wepons. Brad I'm with you on the .40. I've never seen a .40 revolver although balistacally the .357 and the .40 are very similar the revolver is much more accurate, wouldn't dream of hunting deer with a .40, did shoot one with a glock .45 two years ago but thats a different story. Oh, and Munj, The .700 nitro is a great Kentucky rabbit gun, right boys..................
 
#37
Mike A said:
No such critter, it's actually .475 Linebaugh (there's also a .500 Linebaugh) but both the .475 Linebaugh and .480 Ruger cartridge are actually .475" in diameter.
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Sorry, About that dude I knew when I wrote that I might be wrong, And personally I haven't shot anything bigger then a .375 R D Jones. I stand corrected. I worked in Police supply for two years, but left the Outdoor (wholesale) word about 5 years ago , so I haven't kept up as much as I'd like. But if you can catch a trout with it I know about it!!!!
 
#38
burk48237 said:
A couple of comments on Petary's "contreversial" post. First it wasn't that bad, a little bit over gennerallizing. Brad, I didn't notice any comparison to the .22 with the 9 mm.
Click to expand...

He edited the post. It did say that .22 and 9x19 were the same thing.

I'm not a big fan of the 9, basically I think there just .38 special semis when it comes to stopping power.
Click to expand...

Believe it or not, all the main service calibers from 9mm to .357sig to .45 have similar street records when using quality hp ammo. That is from the mouths of ballistics and terminal wounding experts who have examined literally hundreds of shootings and done tons of post-incident autopsies. That is the truth.

Don't buy into Marshall and Sanow's "stopping power" ratings and all that BS. It's an inherently flawed system that was conducted poorly and on top of that their book has been show to have straight-up lies in it.

The .45 is still the best personal protection round in a handgun
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.45 is a great round but see my comments above.

(keeping in mind that any gun a person can't handle is no good for them) . I agree with Petary on one thing, these bad boys (.45s) still stop, after many conversations with SRT and patrol officers, a round square in the shoulder with a .45 will put down most perps, a .40 or .357sig may blow thru them and a 9mm is going to require follow up rounds, not the .45.
Click to expand...

There are plenty of stories of .45s not stopping people with one shot and plenty of stories of people dropping immediately when shot by 9mm. There are tons of PDs in this country that use 9mm with great success, such as NYPD which I believe uses Speer Gold Dot 124gr, and a bunch of California PDs that use 147gr Winchester Ranger T ammo, which is possibly the best 9mm ammo available. There are larger factors at play than the caliber being used such as the mindset and physical condition of the person being shot, the shot placement, whether or not the person is high etc. In fact there's a very well-known and documented story of one cop who shot a guy 3 times and hit him in the torso with a .357 mag. The guy didn't go down and returned fire with a .22, hit the cop and the cop died. The guy survived. Now that's just one story but that kind of stuff happens all the time. There are even documented instances of soldiers taking .50BMG rounds and surviving but that's a whole other story. When using ball ammo though, such as in the military where they don't use JHPs, I think .45 would be the best choice.

Simply put handguns are poor choices for defensive tools but they are used out of necessity and practicality. A good rifle or shotgun trumps a handgun in sheer performance and is a better choice than any of them.

brad ocok
 
#40
Believe it or not, all the main service calibers from 9mm to .357sig to .45 have similar street records when using quality hp ammo. That is from the mouths of ballistics and terminal wounding experts who have examined literally hundreds of shootings and done tons of post-incident autopsies. That is the truth.

Don't buy into Marshall and Sanow's "stopping power" ratings and all that BS. It's an inherently flawed system that was conducted poorly and on top of that their book has been show to have straight-up lies in it.

Brad, All though I respct your opinion on this greatly and haven't done thousands of experiments, I have talked to "hundreds" of police officers including SRT and Federal officers (DEA,FBI, and ATF). I haven't met one who would prefer a 9mm over a .45 or .40 to stop a perp!!



There are plenty of stories of .45s not stopping people with one shot and plenty of stories of people dropping immediately when shot by 9mm. There are tons of PDs in this country that use 9mm with great success, such as NYPD which I believe uses Speer Gold Dot 124gr, and a bunch of California PDs that use 147gr Winchester Ranger T ammo, which is possibly the best 9mm ammo available. There are larger factors at play than the caliber being used such as the mindset and physical condition of the person being shot, the shot placement, whether or not the person is high etc. In fact there's a very well-known and documented story of one cop who shot a guy 3 times and hit him in the torso with a .357 mag. The guy didn't go down and returned fire with a .22, hit the cop and the cop died. The guy survived. Now that's just one story but that kind of stuff happens all the time. There are even documented instances of soldiers taking .50BMG rounds and surviving but that's a whole other story. When using ball ammo though, such as in the military where they don't use JHPs, I think .45 would be the best choice.


Simply put handguns are poor choices for defensive tools but they are used out of necessity and practicality. A good rifle or shotgun trumps a handgun in sheer performance and is a better choice than any of them.

brad ocok[/QUOTE] Brad, there are two issues here #1 Remember that politics determines police dept, issue handguns. If you have read any storys of the NYPD's change over to 9mm semis from revolvers, you would know how hard it is to properly arm police officers in a city run by liberals who would rather see police officers under gunned then have some citizen feel threatend by police officers with military looking wepons! I would be very surprised if less then 60% of the NYPDs officers wouldn't switch to .40 cals in a second! #2 Off course a rifle or shotgun is superior , and I use to reccomend shotguns all the time for HOME defense, but unless you walking arround with a black trench coat the practicality of carrying arround an AK 47 or better yet a Barret .50 makes a concealable pistol a better choice for personal protection. By the way this thread is a blast and gun owners are way more opinionated then bass owners, but, God if you own guns and basses you are really cool!!!!!!!
 

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