Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
Build II - Paradox MJ5 - New design!
- Thread starter roberthabraken
- Start date
ExaltBass said:
Thanks
PDGood said:
Building wouldn't be interesting without a little of a challenge, would it?
Lonnybass said:Looks great Rob. After you sand back the black, make sure to hit the top with some naphtha to really clean it off before you apply your red. And make sure to sand WITH the grain under really good natural light, because those tiny dye particles will reveal micro-fine scratches you won't see otherwise. GOOD LUCK!
Lonnybass
Thanks, and thanks for the advice! I usually clean with benzene (wasbenzine?) before finishing, not sure if it's equal to naphtha, but indeed planned to do it before the red too. Thanks for the confirmation though, as I had a little doubt if it would be okay over a clean dyed surface (unfinished).
With the grain, to be sure, is perpendicular to the flames you mean, right?
What kind of grit would you use? I think 120g would be the best to get the right amount of dye removed, but it may scratch too much. 180g? Or 240g? I would really like to know what you'd pick!
Prostheta said:
A little, not too much I think.
Thanks
With the grain, to be sure, is perpendicular to the flames you mean, right?
What kind of grit would you use? I think 120g would be the best to get the right amount of dye removed, but it may scratch too much. 180g? Or 240g? I would really like to know what you'd pick!
Rob-
You'll actually want to sand parallel to the flame, not perpendicular.
In terms of grit, I typically use 220 with my electric radial sander to remove the black, and then use my sanding block block with 320 to remove any swirl marks or lines.
Lonnybass
Thanks Lonny. The grain actually runs perpendicular to the flames. That's also how I got the least noticeable scratches. I started at 180g, but probably had too much black on there, so I moved back to 120g and went up to 320g also. Had no problems getting everything smooth.
However.. the second part of the finishing didn't went as well as the first part. What I know now, is that I have to remove the black all the way back to the plain maple. I thought I had to leave visible black flames (in a very light shade of grey) on the wood.
Just after applying the red, it looked marvelous, bright red with stunning black flame (albeit a bit dark). So my first reaction was sheer hapiness... but that didn't last for long. As I watched and photographed my result, the black started to dissolve again, mixing with the red. Small black dots developed across the surface. The flames literaly ran out into the red. I also noticed, only now, that my sanding wasn't as smooth as I thought it was (tint-wise, not the smoothness of the surface).
Since I needed to do something about the black dots and the red was turning flat, I decided (couldn't get any worse) that it needed more red. So I applied a new layer of red over the top and hoped for the best. The result being that the dots disappeared and the run out too. But the varying tints of black are still there and the most disturbing thing is, that it isn't red anymore, because too much black got into the mix. I now have a silky purple bass. The flames show, rather well, but the colour isn't what I hoped for (not like the test pieces).
The thing that went wrong here, is that my test pieces where too flat. And I mean that the flames didn't show that well. So I thought I'd sanded them too aggresively. Seems it wasn't the case...
Tomorrow I will decide what to do: is the result good enough? And can I accept that the colour is completely different from what I had in mind? Or will I sand back the complete top and start over with the red completely?
Any other suggestions to fix this are also very welcome
Some temporary previews (I will post the whole process of the second finishing part once I decided what to do and when I am ready with what follows):
Link Removed
Invalid Link Removed
Invalid Link Removed
Invalid Link Removed
What a journey this is.. :scowl:
Ultimately it's your project, but for what it's worth, I was not a fan of the red, but I love this!
Hopkins
Commercial User
I think you just have a minor set back. I think you can just sand down what you have now and hit it with the red again. The flame should still pop afterwords. I love the minimal black burst thing you have going on. When you get the red right its going to be beautiful
Hey Rob-
The beauty of the dyes is that it's easy to sand back and reapply until you are satisfied.
What you want to do is sand your red off and get as much of the visible black off too. However, the rays will keep some of the black in the deeper grain, you just won't be able to see it until you re-coat. Once you're back to your well-sanded natural wood, hit with naphtha again to clean it, let it stand for a half hour, and then you're ready for your red color again.
It looks like you have the hang of using the dyes...just make sure to keep the top surface wetted down with water - without any standing puddles - and don't dilute your color too much.
Here's a few pictures taken from a few angles of a burled myrtle bass I recently completed using the same sanded black/red dye technique. You can see how a subtle undertone of black is all you need.
The beauty of the dyes is that it's easy to sand back and reapply until you are satisfied.
What you want to do is sand your red off and get as much of the visible black off too. However, the rays will keep some of the black in the deeper grain, you just won't be able to see it until you re-coat. Once you're back to your well-sanded natural wood, hit with naphtha again to clean it, let it stand for a half hour, and then you're ready for your red color again.
It looks like you have the hang of using the dyes...just make sure to keep the top surface wetted down with water - without any standing puddles - and don't dilute your color too much.
Here's a few pictures taken from a few angles of a burled myrtle bass I recently completed using the same sanded black/red dye technique. You can see how a subtle undertone of black is all you need.
I'll post in a while as I am in bed drinking coffee on the mob. This isn't a big setback Rob. Bear with me. Lonny and Hopkins are right.
Thanks Carl, Lonny, Hopkins!
@Beej: I do like the purple too, in a way, and the flames shine really nice and silky (hard to describe), but I find the colour to dark in general and I still see (however, much less than yesterday) uneven black spots. I think if I will leave it like this, the varnish will highlight the uneven spots even more.
I will sand the black back, together with the purple, until I see the blank wood again.
However, I should leave the black 'burst' around the perimeter, because I cannot sand that without damaging the varnish edge.
I hope I can get a result as good as yours Lonny, how did you sand the black back around the roundover, without touching your edge?
@Beej: I do like the purple too, in a way, and the flames shine really nice and silky (hard to describe), but I find the colour to dark in general and I still see (however, much less than yesterday) uneven black spots. I think if I will leave it like this, the varnish will highlight the uneven spots even more.
I will sand the black back, together with the purple, until I see the blank wood again.
However, I should leave the black 'burst' around the perimeter, because I cannot sand that without damaging the varnish edge.
I hope I can get a result as good as yours Lonny, how did you sand the black back around the roundover, without touching your edge?
Hey Robert, IMO, I think you need to go back and refinish the top. It's not what you were after and I know you will never truly be happy with it. You might want to check out this FB album Pete Skjold put together of the new bass he is building for me. He did a pretty nice step by step of the finish process. Maybe it will help you out.
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.375081729249233.89190.157537344337007&type=3
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.375081729249233.89190.157537344337007&type=3
You are right. I will never be happy with this, so I need to go back and refinish it. I let it sit for one night to think about, but now I went back to the shop, I thought.. nay.
Thanks for the link, that is indeed really helpful. It strucks me that he didn't first apply black and the figure still pops under the yellow..
I hope I can blend in the black edges well enough into the new red top.
And I hope that the dye / stain I made yesterday (about 14 hours ago) will still be usable? Anybody knows this?
I have only a very tiny bit of powder left, and I am not able to get new for a while
I've used powder stains over a year with no problems. I usually mix the whole powder. I've even added water for the stain and it still worked fine.
Again, all agreed. What I was going to post was a little on how figured woods work and the kind of things to expect from them during the working and finishing phases. I'll do this anyway so if you can take anything useful from it, cool. I find finishing a harrowing process at the best of times in my relatively limited experience and am still learning a lot. I would love to hear constructive commentary of what I am about to write as it will help refine how I have learned this subject too.
The single most important thing to understand about figured woods is the fibre structure which defines the figure and movement seen in them. The various parts of the fibre as presented react with light differently and in figured woods, the fibres "swim" up/down and in/out of the flat surface so essentially what you have is a pattern of endgrain (fibre ends) and long grain. The purpose of a black (or dark) dye/stain application prior to the final colours is so that the rising and falling end grain is highlighted by it drinking up far more of the colour than the side grain. Sanding back clears up the side grain much quicker, leaving a shadow of the colour in the end grain of the figure. We know this, but I thought it better to write it all in one paragraph.
For the purposes of clarity, it is also worth expanding on the differences between dye and stain as we've been using them a bit interchangeably or in a pretty undefined manner thus far.
From what I know in comparison to a dye, a stain is non-penetrating. Dye has a far higher level of permanency than stain and is more ideal when it comes to layering and building effects up such as bursts, figure popping, etc. The downside is that the penetrating properties of dye flattens the natural movement of figuring quicker (in my experience, please comment further by all means) than application of stain which is more comparable to a thin surface treatment. In addition, stains can be "pulled around" during subsequent colour applications which sounds like what has happened to your black. They all pull out to differing degrees, especially when whaling on top colour - and hence a lot of solvent - to re-activate the black.
The solvent of the subsequent red has lifted the black off and out of the surface by re-activating and diluting that in the end grain. This can be used to create blending effects when bursting by pulling edges in or out, however it does tend to progressively eliminate the work done highlighting figure using dark initial washes.
If I am thinking correctly (partially because I am not a fan of big dark figure highlighting....I prefer to maintain the movement) dyes penetrate the physical structure of the wood to a cellular level rather than the limited penetration of stains which is mostly surface and inter-cellular. If you were starting from scratch, I would ensure that the dark initial wash is a dye and not a stain. It probably was dye as it doesn't look like it pulled out as much as it could have done which is cool. Again, this is the language and methods as I have been taught and learned them.
On the basis that you only have a small amount left and need to restock I would look at the type of finish product you are using. The red seems fine. It would be perfectly acceptable I guess to have both a black stain and a black dye. The black dye to lock into the figure without being diluted by the subsequent colours and the black stain to create a blendable outer black burst. Probably overkill and not necessary. It looks like what has happened is fine.
The Skjold build is certainly beautiful and an excellent example however it is different to how I have approached bursts and hence different to how I present my experience. The last burst similar to yours I did was on a test piece of flamed Maple many years ago using Behlen Solar Lux dyes. These are non grain-raising Aniline dyes which "lock" pretty well when dry.
http://www.behlen.co.uk/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=DYEST
-----------------
The shorter answer would be, "sand it back and re-apply another red coat and you should be fine!".
-----------------
I didn't want to post photos of the project referenced here as it is a very very old one that I was never happy with for many reasons, plus it was merely a test of a finish idea I had which I didn't go with. I did however manage to find (a lot of searching) a couple of old photos.
Link Removed
Link Removed
Look familiar? The "purple" you are seeing is from the mere fact that black is not always black. In fact, some of the blackest blacks have a marginal blue tint added to them which may explain what you are seeing. Recent advice given to me on getting the solid paint mix right for by Black n' Gold build was to add a drop of blue to my black to get that deep "showroom car" black. Not sure why....perhaps a daylight colour balance thing? As soon as you hit it with clear that whole colour balance changes and your blacks go black-black and your red a dark red. I digress.
The next step in this was another graduated sanding back in the centre and an application of another red outer band and amber in the centre with the outer band still wet which allowed me to play with the blend by pushing it out with more amber or pulling it in slightly. The final instrument was actually natural and oiled which makes a "finished item" somewhat irrelevant. It was a good opportunity to play with manual bursting though. The central area when it was in test still had enough "pop" from the initial dark colour as Lonnybass mentioned. That end-grain certainly drinks it up well.
Apologies for the length and possibly contradictory information. The wife is urging me to get the vacuum out to clean the house despite me being in a lot of pain with my back which only whiskey appears to solve. Bleh.
The single most important thing to understand about figured woods is the fibre structure which defines the figure and movement seen in them. The various parts of the fibre as presented react with light differently and in figured woods, the fibres "swim" up/down and in/out of the flat surface so essentially what you have is a pattern of endgrain (fibre ends) and long grain. The purpose of a black (or dark) dye/stain application prior to the final colours is so that the rising and falling end grain is highlighted by it drinking up far more of the colour than the side grain. Sanding back clears up the side grain much quicker, leaving a shadow of the colour in the end grain of the figure. We know this, but I thought it better to write it all in one paragraph.
For the purposes of clarity, it is also worth expanding on the differences between dye and stain as we've been using them a bit interchangeably or in a pretty undefined manner thus far.
From what I know in comparison to a dye, a stain is non-penetrating. Dye has a far higher level of permanency than stain and is more ideal when it comes to layering and building effects up such as bursts, figure popping, etc. The downside is that the penetrating properties of dye flattens the natural movement of figuring quicker (in my experience, please comment further by all means) than application of stain which is more comparable to a thin surface treatment. In addition, stains can be "pulled around" during subsequent colour applications which sounds like what has happened to your black. They all pull out to differing degrees, especially when whaling on top colour - and hence a lot of solvent - to re-activate the black.
The solvent of the subsequent red has lifted the black off and out of the surface by re-activating and diluting that in the end grain. This can be used to create blending effects when bursting by pulling edges in or out, however it does tend to progressively eliminate the work done highlighting figure using dark initial washes.
If I am thinking correctly (partially because I am not a fan of big dark figure highlighting....I prefer to maintain the movement) dyes penetrate the physical structure of the wood to a cellular level rather than the limited penetration of stains which is mostly surface and inter-cellular. If you were starting from scratch, I would ensure that the dark initial wash is a dye and not a stain. It probably was dye as it doesn't look like it pulled out as much as it could have done which is cool. Again, this is the language and methods as I have been taught and learned them.
On the basis that you only have a small amount left and need to restock I would look at the type of finish product you are using. The red seems fine. It would be perfectly acceptable I guess to have both a black stain and a black dye. The black dye to lock into the figure without being diluted by the subsequent colours and the black stain to create a blendable outer black burst. Probably overkill and not necessary. It looks like what has happened is fine.
The Skjold build is certainly beautiful and an excellent example however it is different to how I have approached bursts and hence different to how I present my experience. The last burst similar to yours I did was on a test piece of flamed Maple many years ago using Behlen Solar Lux dyes. These are non grain-raising Aniline dyes which "lock" pretty well when dry.
http://www.behlen.co.uk/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=DYEST
-----------------
The shorter answer would be, "sand it back and re-apply another red coat and you should be fine!".
-----------------
I didn't want to post photos of the project referenced here as it is a very very old one that I was never happy with for many reasons, plus it was merely a test of a finish idea I had which I didn't go with. I did however manage to find (a lot of searching) a couple of old photos.
Link Removed
Link Removed
Look familiar? The "purple" you are seeing is from the mere fact that black is not always black. In fact, some of the blackest blacks have a marginal blue tint added to them which may explain what you are seeing. Recent advice given to me on getting the solid paint mix right for by Black n' Gold build was to add a drop of blue to my black to get that deep "showroom car" black. Not sure why....perhaps a daylight colour balance thing? As soon as you hit it with clear that whole colour balance changes and your blacks go black-black and your red a dark red. I digress.
The next step in this was another graduated sanding back in the centre and an application of another red outer band and amber in the centre with the outer band still wet which allowed me to play with the blend by pushing it out with more amber or pulling it in slightly. The final instrument was actually natural and oiled which makes a "finished item" somewhat irrelevant. It was a good opportunity to play with manual bursting though. The central area when it was in test still had enough "pop" from the initial dark colour as Lonnybass mentioned. That end-grain certainly drinks it up well.
Apologies for the length and possibly contradictory information. The wife is urging me to get the vacuum out to clean the house despite me being in a lot of pain with my back which only whiskey appears to solve. Bleh.
I'm not sure how Pete went about this, but I know he did say something about "enhancing the grain" somehow before he started applying the color.
The photos of the Maple in its more or less natural form have a pretty nice contrast as they stand. It could quite well be a very light and/or thin thin initial dyeing and sanding back pretty flat. It doesn't take much to achieve a decent pop, especially with how deeply the end grain takes up colour in this technique. Even a relatively light blonde or amber wash accentuates figure under lighter colours.
Looking at the photos again, it looks like the dark bead in the second photo was feathered out in the third with water or whatever which also cleaned and lightened the figure under the dark parts. Sanding may have been involved here also to achieve this. The application of the reds feathered out the transitions out further and brought out the highlights in the dark areas a brighter red. It has indeed been artfully done.
Looking at the photos again, it looks like the dark bead in the second photo was feathered out in the third with water or whatever which also cleaned and lightened the figure under the dark parts. Sanding may have been involved here also to achieve this. The application of the reds feathered out the transitions out further and brought out the highlights in the dark areas a brighter red. It has indeed been artfully done.
What works for me around the edges is to use a small block of wood (one or two inches is all you need) with sandpaper wrapped around it - this lets me work in all the angles and contours with a good amount of control and even degree of surface pressure. It's a bit time consuming but the end result is well worth it.
I wouldn't worry too much at all about damaging the varnish edge. In fact, it might be more productive if some of it were taken off so as to minimize any witness lines you may get when you apply your topcoats (unless you plan to do this later).
I think you'll be perfectly safe sanding your current color coats back to natural and then re-applying the red. Just make sure your flame is evenly toned as any overly dark stripes will look out of of place once you get the red on there. Naptha will help you spot any areas that need to be sanded back.
One last thing - if you are able - post a shot of the bass once you've done the sanding, before reapplying any red. My guess is that you weren't aggressive enough the first time around. I can take a look and see how close you are to getting the result I think you'll want in the end.
Lonnybass
Thanks Lonny, too late for that, sorry, but worked all day on it. Sand it back a lot more than first time around, almost to a point were the flames started to disappear. Lots of plain maple inbetween. Re-applied the red, which is actually bright red now. The problem I have left is that the black still develops dots after a while. I can polish them out with a cloth with red stain (stain is what Clou calls it). Gets less each time but comes back when drying, maybe even when I will varnish the top. Redone the red 10 times, still looks great but I am afraid I cannot get around the black dots.
In the end I should have omitted the black I think..?
In the end I should have omitted the black I think..?
If I had to guess, the black dots you are seeing are likely a result of the black dye particles not dissolving completely prior to application. Seems like you are successfully working them out to some degree, but the only way to really get them out for good would be to fully sand off the black layer and I'm not sure if you're interested in going that route given that you appear to be generally satisfied with the appearance. However, I think the black was still well worth it as you'll get some nice extra striping that wouldn't come through otherwise.
Lonnybass
