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Building Muscle Memory: Practice 6 Hours a Day???

And I mean I've watched that Flea lesson, watched videos with Alex Webster and Billy Sheehan, and they all sort of have the same thing going on if I really listen for it so... maybe its not so bad? Maybe its just the nature of playing fingerstyle? Idunno. Sorry for the rant.

I believe I know what you're talking about, and I think it's just something that should smooth out with time. It's all going to matter on what type of riff you're playing (string skipping, moving around the fretboard a lot). I almost would recommend NOT trying to specifically practice to smooth it out, but just work on it as you're practicing other riffs.

I am also a finger-style player and do three-finger stuff a lot. I recently got to record with Jason Suecof at Audiohammer (they do stuff like Black Dahlia, Carnifex, Deicide, etc), and when it came to parts like that, we would typically just half-time the bass. At a certain speed, playing bass that fast doesn't even sound good in a mix or a recording.
 
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I believe I know what you're talking about, and I think it's just something that should smooth out with time. It's all going to matter on what type of riff you're playing (string skipping, moving around the fretboard a lot). I almost would recommend NOT trying to specifically practice to smooth it out, but just work on it as you're practicing other riffs.

I am also a finger-style player and do three-finger stuff a lot. I recently got to record with Jason Suecof at Audiohammer (they do stuff like Black Dahlia, Carnifex, Deicide, etc), and when it came to parts like that, we would typically just half-time the bass. At a certain speed, playing bass that fast doesn't even sound good in a mix or a recording.

Yeah, I've ended up halfing/otherwise simplifying several things as well and I feel guilty. Even my own poopie (my songs I wrote on guitar) I end up realizing I can't do cleanly on bass whether the gallops are just to fast or spaced in a way that doesn't lend itself as easy to the 3-2-1 galloping (6/8: 1 2-&-3 4 5-&6 at like 200 BPM [bum bumbadum bum bumbadum], for example; fingers go 1, 3-2-1, 2, 3-2-1, 2, 3-2-1 and going from the middle finger to the ring finger isn't as natural, which is why Webster and Sheehan and other players that use 3 fingers go 3-2-1-3 instead of 3-2-1-2) so I end up just doing straight 8ths or triplets and sitting out the gallops because it vibrates the string to the point where when I strike it again, like I said before, its in a different spot slightly and totally forfeits the attack I'm going for ("flubbed"). So part of me is just thinking I'll have to be fine with simplifying things, but the other part of me knows in the back of my mind that Alex Webster can do straight 16ths at 190 BPM and I want to track him down and force him to tell me how he does it without any flubbage or slop or inconsistency x.x
 
Not sure I get what you mean here. What if the passage I'm practicing doesn't have any 16ths, for example? Or are you making a riff into its own sort of exercise by altering it? Also what do you mean by +'s?
I think he meant: +'s =ands (upbeats). ie: 1+2+3+4+ (a way to keep track of 1/8th's, also),... Divide those 1/8th's again in half and you have 1/16th's. ie: 1e+a2e+a3e+a4e+a. etc. Gotta think those 1/16's are a radical drill, though. Phew!!!!
 
There's a part where he says when you're trying to develop a technique or perfect a new riff etc. to start slow with a metronome (he reccommends 60 BPM although what he practices in that split-second example might as well be 120 BPM gallops but I digress) and practice NOTHING but that thing constantly for 6 hours a day (with 5-15 minute breaks) for 2 days and up the BPM by 10 every couple days and so on. He says this is one of the most effective ways to build muscle memory.

Firstly... 6 hours a day? Is that really an acceptable practice schedule?

No, not even in sports you do that. You get RSI syndrome. I wonder what that guy's been smoking, and that's seriously. I've very early on come to the conclusion, that what works for you doesn't - at all - works for me. I discovered this the hard way. By repetitive mechanics callistenics motion to a metronome and tried to nail something going on ad nauseam, is detrimental. Everyone else does like this:

Try to nail and practice the line, riff, rick or mostly - whole - song. The difficult parts for a while, but say no more than 20 minutes real honing. Then MIX that up with out of control/excitement playing like you should retune your bass/guitar and move the fingers randomly across the neck, and get really positevely surprised at what you hear. Just do avant garde free form stuff. I mean, as much as you can and dare, and be bold, play totally out, so that no one else is listening to it, abandon key or scale or fingering thinking. Now, that runs for a while, and you yourself get tired of it too of course, since it sounds like a 3 year old banging away. Now, just play some other stuff, maybe NEW lines, and something else you haven't practiced for about 10-15 minutes. Some old stuff you know, some new things BUT that one you're trying to nail.

Take a 5 min break. Go to the fridge and have a beer.

Get back to hard parts you were trying to nail. I'll bet you can pull this off, WAY BETTER than if you have tortured yourself with that special naggingly repetitive line for 6 hours. Believe me. I have yet to come across anything that I have to nail, to sit, stand for 6 hours. 6 hours of varied playing though, as far apart styles and sounds as possible, i e not too many lines, themes, and runs that are too much alike... say, a pentatonic run is still a pentatonic if it's always in E and at 120 bpm. Mix them all up with TUNE/SONG playing, I'm sure you've made greater steps forward at the end of the day, than doing your runthrough of Smolinskis "Thesauraus of Scales".

Just my 2 grand.
 
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When developing new skills of a physical nature, there comes a point where the use stops being constructive and starts to become destructive as the over-use becomes mis-use and leads to under performance, reduced performance and injury.

As said in a few posts, regular repetition is the answer, ten minutes every day is better than just playing hour after hour at the weekend.
The trouble with repetition, is that it is repetition, and RSI (Repetitive Strain Injury) needs you to do this to create the injury you may suffer for the rest of your life.

So practice is important, but it needs certain conditions in place to help make it useful.
Warn up, muscle like heat and gentle use before playing warms them up for the task to come.

Stretching them is good, stretches help warm them and take out tension, un-wanted tension in muscles is not desirable.
So be hydrated, water or use a sports drink to help fuel your muscles, muscles are over 70% water based.

You have two distinct muscle fibre types you need to fuel, fast twitch and slow twitch.
Fast twitch response, as the name suggests, is for speed and dexterity, slow twitch is for stamina and strength.
Over use of practice may target slow twitch response, so not intact helping with any dexterity, but create stamina and a sluggish, but powerful hand, ideal for say mountain climbing, but not for playing guitar.

You also need fuel for these muscles as the are anaerobic, the get there fuel from food, not oxygen by increased heart rate pumping rich red blood cells to the muscles, but by foods. Carbohydrates are good, as are energy bars and fruit with natural sugars.
Bananas are a great fuel source. It only needs a few bites of any of the foods as you practice, take a drink as well.

For me i practice 20mins, rest twenty mins, then practice twenty mins. In the rest period i do some reading, some stretches, have bite to eat and a drink.
My practice starts when i wake up with stretches to the body and hands, i have some breakfast then start my first practice session hour, with stretches and my warm up.
i then get freshened up, changed, have a bite to eating drink then start a second hour.

Now i am a professional player, so i practice when i am fresh and alert.
My day job is playing, as is my evening job, so for me i have to measure my use, on busy work day i just stretch and warm up only...through out the day, warm ups and stretches act as warm downs as well, so i may warm up and down many times a day.

Many players have a different day job, so they practice in the evening, normally after a hard days work, so they practice with tired hands, or hands that have done more than there fair share of use for a day. Those hands are normally not warmed up, fuelled or hydrated, so the results are variable, sometimes the practice moves the hands into over-use and mis-use...not practice.

So any player needs to work out their hand use and maximise their practice times when the hands are fresh and healthy.
One regular issue i hear about is no time in the evening to practice, or too tired to practice.
Well get up half an hour earlier in the morning and use that time, it will be more productive than playing with tired hands in the evening.
You can still do evenings, but the need to play longer is not needed, the daily practice needed to develop skills is being done in the morning.

In such matters there are considered 'Four stages Of Competence" that you go through...rather than me explain it, Google it.....you may recognise yourself in the explanations.
'Muscle Memory' is a buzz word used to describe the whole Four Stages idea, muscles do not have memory, but you can train reaction from conscious to un-concious thought, in other words deep learn your skills to be re-active and develop in a cognitive way that becomes instinct.

Practice is good, but constructive practice is the key, its not the time spent practicing but what and how you practice that will bring results.
 
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Once in my gtrd years, I tried to technically see if I could practice up a "shred" skill, and did a MIDI backing track of an old country tune, made famous by Dixie Dregs at breakneck speed. It's called "the Bash" (short for Wabash Cannonball). The refrain, or is it called "breakdown"? where there's strict alternate picking, a between open strings and fretted, and it should be picked cleanly (clean sound) at at least 160 BPM, to make you not yawn. Did a MIDI backing track which started at 100 BPM, and that repetetive 32 bar chord changes, regular country progression. Repeated the same run for 5 minutes at each BPM then raised a 5 on the metronome. say first 5 minutes at 100, next 5 minutes and 105 (110 were actually too fast...to go to that soon) and after that. After 1 hour I was at it at 160 PBM, and nailed it without lactic acid or getting fatigued. When it became too hard, aroudn 150 BPM, I had to back off, and go out of that timing a bit, take more than 5 minutes.

But then I discovered that if I AD-LIBBED and improvised chicken pickin' lines and not played that lick all of the time, I could nail that line faster and faster if I mixed it up with other lines. I reached 160 BPM, and held it there and carried on, although I know that the Dregs played it live from 180 bpm or above. The thing was that it did absolutely NIL to my playing, and I had to start over again, if I took a pause for a couple of hours. I had to start at the bottom again at 100 BPM, because I became too rusty, and slow too fast after I've nailed it. Eventually I got fed up with it, even if I changed keys, and it started to wear on me like the dreaded New York music stores crew that gets mental when someone plays "Smoke On The Water" or "Stairway To Heaven". I have little wonder, that they get really bothered by it for real. Can't stand that tune today. And besides all this, the bass line underpinning it, is so much easier to pull off, even without practice... ;)
 
Now take a good look at what happens with those who made 12 hours a day practicing regime, now that some gtrd shredders has come slightly of age, and a bit long in the tooth:

Deep+Purple+Concert+Fremont+Street+Experience+4OUf9yl4FNcl.jpg


A support on his wrist, at his picking hand. But yet, Steve is a stickler for slow warm up excercises, and precision alternative picking. Others have reported on tendonitis, carpal tunnel syndrome, sore thumb and arthtritis. Whatever RSI injuries. You name it. It will eventually creep up and bite you in the butt sooner or later. Robben Ford has had it, even Yngwie too, though he said he never practiced anything in his life, he just have played. Too much of one thing is always bad. Regardless of food, sex, booze, weed, you name it, loud volume levels on stage... it comes back at you like a boomerang later in life. Even late Keith Emerson had severe problems at his senior years, playing keyboards. And what I've heard on the stories, it was what, indirectly killed him, he was too depressed of that he wasn't as able and nimble as before, so he went for that gun...

Even if I've built up a severe stamina these years, to always be as relaxed as possbile when playing, I can play and rehearse and jam for ours, the rest of the band members tires out, get lactic acid or just gets sore in their fingers, arms, or hands, after a few hours. I can still go on like it's nuttin. If I don't STRUGGLE...:laugh: If I have to play something that I feel "hey this is getting me cramped up from lactic acid with a couple of seconds" I'd rather not try to play it. Like trying to play at 105 percent of my capacity. My fingers just lasts longer if I try not to please someone else with impressive chops.
 
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Watched a video of a very tehnically able guitarist (Lucas Mann in his "Shards of Scorched Flesh" playthrough/lesson) and he sprinkles practicing advice in there.

There's a part where he says when you're trying to develop a technique or perfect a new riff etc. to start slow with a metronome (he reccommends 60 BPM although what he practices in that split-second example might as well be 120 BPM gallops but I digress) and practice NOTHING but that thing constantly for 6 hours a day (with 5-15 minute breaks) for 2 days and up the BPM by 10 every couple days and so on. He says this is one of the most effective ways to build muscle memory.

Firstly... 6 hours a day? Is that really an acceptable practice schedule? I mean I practiced the same thing today for an hour upping the BPM by 10 about every 10 minutes and my hands ached afterwards. 6 hours seems like utter overkill. Am i mistaken?

Secondly, such a long time at the same BPM? I've heard varying opinions such as "play it x times through at this bpm and if you play it perfectly then you can speed it up, if you can't then stay at this bpm" and the method I mentioned using with just raising the BPM at intervals I felt comfortable with. Is he right and I should stick to the same BPM for 12 hours worth of practice or can I get away with either of the other methods?

Also, side question; he mentions it being important when practicing to use the absolute least amount of physical effort possible when picking and fretting. I play finger style bass. Would this approach work well with finger style or should I just pluck with a normal effort? Is he wrong and you should typically practice with a normal or even emphasized effort? Thanks
not sure if it has been mentioned, but if anything aches after any amount of time then your playing technique is flawed and/or your bass needs a setup. there should be no pain or discomfort when playing...ever.
 
There are 3 stages to learning motor skills. Cognitive, Associative, and Automatic. There is no such thing as "muscle memory".

That said, from what I have been told by performance coaches in my golf teaching certification seminars, and the like....
it takes around 500 CORRECT repetitions daily, for 21 days to get into automatic stage of a new motor skill.
How do we apply that knowledge to our music practice? We practice things over and over, making sure we are 100% correct slow before fast.
Then, through thousands of correct repetitions, we can finally perform the skill at a peak performance level.
Once that is achieved, you have to maintain it, by using it regularly enough to perform to that level consistently.
In other words.... woodshed your arse off for however long it takes. Everyone will be different for how long it takes them to get to that stage.
"Muscle memory" is simply a term used by some to describe what happens after 500 CORRECT repetitions daily, for 21 days. No one really believes that muscles have memory cells like your brain. It's just another way of saying you can do something in a way that seems to just be automatic. Likewise, no one can swing a golf club automatically. There is a mental process involved in starting the swing which is followed by a series of sensors and feedback based on your feeling of what is right that comes from practice. You remember what a good swing feels like and have done it enough that you unconsciously make micro adjustments as the swing progresses. It's no different than many things we endeavor to do well. And there are many names for that. Your golf instructor probably chooses to not use "muscle memory" as the term might lead some to think they don't have to put in some of the work they should. And that is a valid reason, in my opinion. But to say there is no such thing as muscle memory is like saying there's no such thing as Mojo.
Yeah baby! :p
 
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There are 3 stages to learning motor skills. Cognitive, Associative, and Automatic. There is no such thing as "muscle memory".

That said, from what I have been told by performance coaches in my golf teaching certification seminars, and the like....
it takes around 500 CORRECT repetitions daily, for 21 days to get into automatic stage of a new motor skill.
How do we apply that knowledge to our music practice? We practice things over and over, making sure we are 100% correct slow before fast.
Then, through thousands of correct repetitions, we can finally perform the skill at a peak performance level.
Once that is achieved, you have to maintain it, by using it regularly enough to perform to that level consistently.
In other words.... woodshed your arse off for however long it takes. Everyone will be different for how long it takes them to get to that stage.
Another approach is time related. On average it takes 100 times the length of time to learn something. If you have a 1 minute passage, you need to play it for 100 minutes to learn and internalize it. Not perfect it mind you, just learn it.

I know when I was first at Berklee, I practiced 8 hours a day on top of classes. There was a time that I truly felt more comfortable with my bass on than off.

FWIW
 
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"Muscle memory" is simply a term used by some to describe what happens after 500 CORRECT repetitions daily, for 21 days. No one really believes that muscles have memory cells like your brain. It's just another way of saying you can do something in a way that seems to just be automatic. Likewise, no one can swing a golf club automatically. There is a mental process involved in starting the swing which is followed by a series of sensors and feedback based on your feeling of what is right that comes from practice. You remember what a good swing feels like and have done it enough that you unconsciously make micro adjustments as the swing progresses. It's no different than many things we endeavor to do well. And there are many names for that. Your golf instructor probably chooses to not use "muscle memory" as the term might lead some to think they don't have to put in some of the work they should. And that is a valid reason, in my opinion. But to say there is no such thing as muscle memory is like saying there's no such thing as Mojo.
Yeah baby! :p

There is no such thing as muscle memory. Call it whatever you like, but your muscles are incapable of storing memory. I AM a golf professional. LOL I don't have an instructor. I AM an instructor. And I was learning from sport scientist/performance experts about peak performance and how to attain it. And yes you can swing a golf club automatically. By that I mean you are not thinking of the mechanical processes during the act of making the swing. You are not thinking of anything but your target. The process of thinking occurs during practice and your pre-shot routine. Once you are ready to swing, the mind is focused on the target only. Sometimes in peak performance people experience "the zone" which is an even deeper level of automatic .
Google search about motor skill learning, and peak performance studies.
Also there is also no such thing as Mojo. That is just superstition.
 
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Another approach is time related. On average it takes 100 times the length of time to learn something. If you have a 1 minute passage, you need to play it for 100 minutes to learn and internalize it. Not perfect it mind you, just learn it.

I know when I was first at Berklee, I practiced 8 hours a day on top of classes. There was a time that I truly felt more comfortable with my bass on than off.

FWIW
I was the same during my time in college. Study music all day in classes, teach private lessons in the evenings, and then practice my own studies after that. 16hours a day for a couple years. LOL yes it is all about repetition, no matter the skill involved. To reach a high level of performance, you must put in the time/reps.
 
Kai Eckhardt's rule of thumb is to practice something until you can play it first thing when you get up in the morning and play it through perfectly. That is how you know you have practiced it enough and you are ready to move on to something else
.

You know you have it down when you can perform the task under pressure. Usually this means in front of other people. LOL
 
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