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Double Bass Buying my second bass - Andreas Morelli

baste_artist

baste_artist

Jun 9, 2013
43
20
soundcloud.com
#1
Greetings! This is going to be a long post, as I believe a background of my experience is relevant. Skip to bottom for TLDR and link to bass

So I have been playing double bass for around 12 years now, using only the bass that I bought at the time when I started. This bass is an old german plywood, supposedly pre-ww2 era. I always thought it had a nice sound, and played easy enough. I've had issues with the setup changing a lot during humidity changes, and I get it adjusted by a luthier about every year. I have not been a consistent upright player for the last few years, mostly because I travel a lot and play a lot of music other than jazz which makes the upright not ideal (bass guitar is definitely my main instrument with 20+ years of exp).

Another issue I've always had is the sound of my bass in a band context. I'll practice my butt off for a couple weeks for a gig, get to the gig, and struggle hearing myself. I find I never have the right amount of definition, and if I turn up I just get feedback or nasty nasal tone. I've done quite a bit of pickup, amp, and mic experimentation. I got new strings for the first time this year (Thomastik Spirocore, same strings as the bass has always had), as well as bought the K&K Bass Master Pro with Preamp which I run into an Aguilar TH500 pair with a Markbass 2x10. This has greatly enhanced my live tone, and I found the last few shows to be much better than the years before.

However, I still have always realized there will come a time where I need to buy myself a really good bass, as I believe it will enhance my playing (at least encourage me to practice more).

I've been in touch with a bass shop in the bay area, as my luthier continues to work for him here and there. I finally went down there last week and spent about 2.5 hours playing a bunch of amazing basses. What I realized is even an entry-mid-level Shen for under $5000 is still a huge upgrade from my bass in terms of both playability and tone. But after playing a bunch of basses, I fell in love with not 1 but 2 basses, about double the price of what I was hoping to spend ($5k).

What I loved about these basses is the tone seems to cut through like a knife. They have that amazing "mwah" sound and just playing a single note is so satisfying. It's as if the basses play themselves. The first bass I liked which had this affect is a 1970s German, with a completely rebuilt neck, fingerboard, bridge, etc. Like I said, the tone cut through like a knife, but the neck was insanely thick, like holding on to a tree trunk. The bass just next to it had a similar tone, albeit a bit softer, a thinner neck, and thus a bit easier to play. After playing in some different keys, I noticed specifically the C rang out more full on the second bass than the first, so I sort of decided I liked that one more, also because the thinner neck, and the slightly softer tone.

Once I realized it should be time for me to go and ponder these basses, the shop keep asked if I wanted to take the bass home with me and try it out for a bit! I couldn't believe it, but it was because I am friends with our mutual luthier. I believe it's also an old salesmen trick, because he figures I'll fall in love with it and have to buy it. He was right! I've been practicing with the bass every day and I do love the sound. Although the amp tone using the K&K is not the most amazing, but I guess that's to be expected and will take more experimenting.

Anyways, my question to you all is, how do you know what a bass is actually worth? It seems to me like it's pretty arbitrary, and obviously I'm paying a premium for buying from a dealer. I took the bass to my luthier, and while there are cracks in very fragile places (above the bass bar, and another leading towards the sound post), they have been repaired and are holding up. He said it wasn't repaired as good as it possibly could have been, but as it's holding up it'll probably hold up for quite a few more years. He had nothing to say to deter me from buying it (in fact he was also blown away by the sound, calling it incredibly "open), but did suggest I bargain on the price as much as I could.

It's a bit weird for me to consider buying something so beat up for 10k, especially when I can get a beautiful brand new one for less than half the cost.

TLDR: Buying my first good quality bass. Is there a way to determine what it's worth? Will it retain it's value if kept up properly? (it already shows heavy signs of use)

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Thanks for your time!
 
#2
Most people in the business generally know what a bass is worth just from experience, knowledge of different makers, overall health etc. Of you track the market for twenty years it’s fairly easy to price a bass. Wear and tear is expected for an older instrument. Repaired cracks and such don’t detract too much if the work was done properly. Bigger issues involve the neck. But a Morelli for example should be fairly easy to price. Yes, you can get a new bass but I’ve yet to find one that sounds as complex as one with some age and playing on it. When you find one you like take it for a TRIAL before you buy. Make sure that it meets your needs in as many playing situations as possible. If it’s right, make an offer, if not, return it and keep looking.
 
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#3
At that price range, you have a LOT of options.

Try as many basses as you can and the right one will find you; it always surprises me with the unexpected basses.

Patience will reward you with far more bass for much less cost than you ever imagined.

Out of curiosity, did you play the Prescott and some of the other high end basses at Steve's shop while you visited? I've literally played over a million dollars worth of basses in the last month, yet a few surprising models stood out to me and they were not the high dollar legacy models.
 
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#4
I've bought two basses from Steve's shop over the past 14 years. First was a 1970s Wilfer and next a 1940s Pfretschner. Both times, Steve let me take the basses home for trials, which I found invaluable. Both times I took the basses to independent luthiers for inspection and appraisals. The luthiers confirmed the basses were in good condition with all cracks and other issues repaired professionally. They also confirmed that the prices Steve was asking was reasonable, with perhaps a slight bump to account for Bay Area cost of living. I owned the Wilfer for about 2 years and then sold it through Steve's shop for exactly the price I bought it. I still own the Pfretschner after 12 years and it's my main bass and I've maintained it as best as I can with several different luthiers. Working with Steve on these purchases was a very positive experience.

On the Pfretschner, I had my luthier shave down the neck profile making the bass far more comfortable to play without losing any tone. I think a lot of upright players do this, particularly pros (e.g., check the neck profile on some of Christian McBride's basses). My Pfretschner in appearance looks very vintage and beat up, with it's finish wearing away and lots of nicks and cracks, but that look seems to really catch folks' attention and it by no means diminishes the tone or its value I think. I like to tell people that the Pfretschner is literally just being held together by sticks and glue, and I can't fathom how it continues to sound so good year after year. I guess it's just the magic of good European luthiery and the mystery behind acoustic stringed instrument design.

Given that I've meticulously maintained the Pfretschner over a dozen years, I think I could likely fetch close to what I paid for it, particularly if I chose to sell through Steve's shop. Thing is though that I doubt I would ever sell the Pfretschner as I've entirely adjusted to its dimensions and it's become my signature sound. I nearly doubled the amount I spent on the Pfretschner over the Wilfer, but it was entirely worth it as my upright bass skills had improved to the point that I needed a better instrument. Now I'm thinking of getting yet another upright from Steve, either a Shen or something similar as a backup to the Pfretschner, or something like the Morelli that you're looking at or an upright of even higher pedigree. As my capacity to play upright continues to improve it makes sense to me to invest in an even better quality instrument.

To answer your question: any upright that I consider buying I have checked by multiple luthiers for repairs and price and other bass shops if possible (Robertson's, David Gage's shop, etc.) for appraisal. I've found it to be somewhat of the wild west on pricing uprights, particularly older basses, so having more opinions to consider has been helpful for me. But I've also had to take a "leap of faith" to a certain extent each time I purchased an upright. It's a big decision buying an upright at these prices, but the risk I took has paid back many rewards.
 
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#5
Hesitate to presume I have anything to offer after Jason and James have chimed in. Just want to add that I have never heard anything negative about Steve Swan's shop. No, you are not likely to "steal" an instrument there, but what I've heard and what I see on their site does not shout out "rip off!"

SS has a fine reputation. At the very least, I would ask that the bass come with a formal valuation. In simple terms, any bass is only worth what pleasure it gives YOU. But, when/if reselling, a formal valuation from a reputable shop is nice to have.

What Jason and James say - for $10k, you should be able to get something you really LOVE! Realize that $10k basses don't fly out of the showroom. They are not likely to press you for a quick decision. And, while you don't want to be THAT customer, there might be some negotiating room in the price. And ask if they have a trade-in program, should you wish to sell up or down in the future.

Before plunking down that kind of cash, you owe it to yourself to try as many basses as you can - both at that shop and anywhere else within a couple of hours drive. If this is the bass for you, you should like it better than a great many basses priced higher. If it is THE bass for you, and you can afford the price, I'd suggest it might be worth possibly paying a premium, and you shouldn't worry overmuch whether you are getting BOTH the bass you want AND a great deal.

I very much understand your concern about buying an old instrument with repaired cracks, and assurances that they "are solid/haven't moved." But that is the nature of this activity and these instruments. It is not a cheap hobby. And quality instruments are eminently repairable.

(Probably the only bass I still think about having not bought was a big old German, also asking $10k. I probably would have bought it if I didn't have 2 kids getting married that year. It also had a big old crack - which, per the owner "hadn't moved in decades.")
 
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#7
Don't be too quick to reject a bass due to a "thick" neck. Both my basses (one modern, one older) have what I consider to be pretty normal necks. When I've checked out basses with "thin" necks, I can feel my left hand tensing up almost immediately.

Properly repaired cracks are not a reason to reject an older instrument.
 
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#8
Another +1 for Steve Swan. He let me once come in and play almost everything in the shop just because I was a curious 18 year old. Awesome guy, great selection and instruments are well set up and are given a clean bill of health.

I wouldn't be afraid to negotiate on price, I think you come from a pretty fair position of "I really love this bass but it's priced higher than my budget." Worst case scenario, Steve can't move on the price for whatever reason and you move on. I had a similar situation last summer and unfortunately the shop couldn't move on price, but I wound up with something that's a much better fit for me.
 
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#11
baste_artist said:
TLDR: Buying my first good quality bass. Is there a way to determine what it's worth? Will it retain it's value if kept up properly? (it already shows heavy signs of use)
Click to expand...
What a bass is worth is the mixture of sound, condition, age, who made it and where it was made. A bass that age made in the Europe or the US that plays well and sounds great is going to be in that price range. Even though it is a brand name and not a luthier it is a known quantity so that adds to the value. Wear, as opposed to damage adds some as well, it means it is played in. Most of us do not want a "slick" looking bass, we want something with some history. It will likely increase in value.
It is like anything, you talk to other bassists, play a bunch and you start to see what you can get in the different ranges. For example, with patience, you can probably find a no-name factory bass from China or eastern Europe with the similar tonal qualities in similar condition for quite a bit less - same qualities by a known luthier or shop adds a few grand or more.
 
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#14
First of all, thank you so much for all your replies. I feel a bit silly because I actually didn't know there were so many more replies until now (after I've made the purchase).

Thankfully, I did pretty much everything you guys all suggested, short of flying around the country. Steve let me take the bass home, which led the process of me absolutely falling in love with this bass. I immediately posted my older bass for sale on facebook, and gotta hit from somebody up in Portland. They offered to pay me extra for the travel, and since I have some friends up there and found another bass shop (Pete's), I decided to make the trip. The guy who bought my bass paid me over 2x what I paid for it 10 years prior (an old german plywood). This gave me confidence that so long as I'm not overpaying a large amount, I will be able to get what I paid for in the future if not more. He also was a guy that flipped basses, so he had a couple shens and a nice upton bass available. I played them all, and were nothing special to me.

The next day I went to Pete's Bass Shop and tried a few basses. Most of them did not speak to me, but he happened to have another Andreas Morelli which I thought was interesting. It was in immaculate condition, sounded and played really nice, but had a price tag of $18k. He said he had on the market for a while so would probably accept a lower offer, but nothing close to 10k. I still felt that even though it was nice, it did not sound as good or play as good as the one I had sitting at home. The only bass he had in his shop that I felt would have been better than my bass was his own bass, which apparently he won an award for. He was asking I think 20 or 25k, I can't remember. It sounded amazing and played great.

It was at this moment that I felt what I was getting from Steve was in fact a really good deal. First of all, Steve said the owner had recently came down in price from 12 to 10, and I managed to pick it up for 9. ;)
I moved the bridge up about 1/4" which puts it right in the middle of old markings, meaning someone else had it there for string length as well.

I feel like this bass is actually changing my life. Every day after I finish work I feel grateful to have time to spend playing it. I don't have moments of boredom, or wondering what I should do. I just want to practice! I just want to play gigs and rehearsals. I'm taking every cheap cafe gig just for the chance to play my bass more. Every day I play it I find I can do more than I could do the day before, and that constant reward makes me just want to keep playing. I literally cannot get over how good this thing sounds. I took it to a jam band gig which I would normally play electric (wanted to test it in a loud environment) and it performed wonderfully. I was able to blast the volume out of my aguilar stack right behind me with no feedback (up to a point) and the sound blew everybody's minds. I'm practicing Bach invention #2 which I have been practicing for probably 4 years on my old bass, and within 2 days I could play it better than I ever could before.

The only thing I worry about now are the neighbors! XD

There actually is just one thing I have noticed. One night I accidentally left the window open in the room that bass was sitting. I live by the ocean in norcal and the bass swelled up like crazy and the action was super high. It took 2 days to come back down, and now I realize it's very sensitive to humidity. My luthier suggests I keep it in the case at night, and I might need to buy a dehumidifier. Another thing I might do is get the bridge lowered ever so slightly and use the bridge adjusters to compensate (right now they're as low as they will go). One thing about the setup too is the E string buzzes significantly more than the other strings, I've tried raising just the E side of the bridge and it helped a little, but I can only go so far before having to raise both sides, or move the bridge. But for now, I really don't mind the buzzing as I think it adds character. I just find the E string might be a little bit deader than the rest because of this. I could also experiment with strings (actually need to confirm with Steve what strings are actually on it).

I'd like to add that I think this forum is one of the best things on the internet, and thank you for providing a place for bassists to share and exchange knowledge! <3
 
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#15
On the humidity issue, get a hygrometer for reference so you know what you are dealing with. The E string could be old strings. It could have a bad spot on the string.

You can't just raise one side of the bridge. That throws the whole bridge off. If you were going to try to raise the E string side you need to raise the G adjuster. By raising the E adjuster you are lowering that side. The finger board and bridge is curved. Raising the E string is shifting the top of the bridge to the G string side. Now look at the end of finger board. Due to the curve of the fingerboard the E and A are getting lower and the D and G are getting higher. I would say lower the adjusters all the way down, put a pencil mark on the adjusters, and raise them both up an equal amount of turns. If you have a lifeline pickup, that side should be one less turn to compensate for the thickness of the adjuster. When the adjusters are properly adjusted and you don't like the bridge, then get it altered or a new one.
 
#16
dperrott said:
On the humidity issue, get a hygrometer for reference so you know what you are dealing with. The E string could be old strings. It could have a bad spot on the string.

You can't just raise one side of the bridge. That throws the whole bridge off. If you were going to try to raise the E string side you need to raise the G adjuster. By raising the E adjuster you are lowering that side. The finger board and bridge is curved. Raising the E string is shifting the top of the bridge to the G string side. Now look at the end of finger board. Due to the curve of the fingerboard the E and A are getting lower and the D and G are getting higher. I would say lower the adjusters all the way down, put a pencil mark on the adjusters, and raise them both up an equal amount of turns. If you have a lifeline pickup, that side should be one less turn to compensate for the thickness of the adjuster. When the adjusters are properly adjusted and you don't like the bridge, then get it altered or a new one.
Click to expand...

Got it, makes sense. The thing is I really don't want to raise the action at all because I like the playability where it's at. The only issue is like I said, the E string is a bit more dead than the rest, and buzzes a lot. I'm considering swapping the weich for a medium gauge E string in hopes the higher tension will help compensate for that.
 
#17
@dperrott
One less turn on the adjuster will make a Lifeline even? Doesn't that depend on the threads or is this something you have measured out with standard 1/4" adjusters?

I also live right on the ocean and humidity is actually quite stable here. My bass freaks out every time it rains, though.
Congrats on this bass. Steve is an excellent guy and is very fair. We are lucky to have him in CA. That seems like a wonderful deal for a healthy Morelli. It looks quite similar to Scott Colley's instrument, which is his main bass.
As for your setup, make sure your technique on your E string is correct. In order to have a relatively easy playing setup, you will need to make sure you are playing the E string right. Play it with the bow and see if it is buzzing. If the fingerboard is planed without lots of camber down in half position and you have relatively loose feeling strings on the bass, it will buzz pretty easily with bad technique (the E has the lowest tension). Also, make sure you have the adjusters set to a realistic height. If you already know all this, please disregard! :)
 
#18
dylanjohnson said:
@dperrott
One less turn on the adjuster will make a Lifeline even? Doesn't that depend on the threads or is this something you have measured out with standard 1/4" adjusters?
Click to expand...

Its all the same
 

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#19
baste_artist said:
Got it, makes sense. The thing is I really don't want to raise the action at all because I like the playability where it's at. The only issue is like I said, the E string is a bit more dead than the rest, and buzzes a lot. I'm considering swapping the weich for a medium gauge E string in hopes the higher tension will help compensate for that.
Click to expand...
Did you replace the Bel Cantos? If your strings are not old then you likely need to get a soundpost check to see if you can help that E string. You should be getting enough sustain on that E string with a Spiro Weich. I'd do that before buying more strings.
 

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