Can a 5 string PJ ever be as good as 4 string P?

[interp]

I play a Marleaux five string with a series/single coil/parallel switch for each pickup (two Delano quad coils). When played in passive mode it has a single tone knob. I can solo the neck pickup, set to single coil, stay off the B string, and it sounds exactly like my old '57 Precision.

 

[gln1955]

Which P?

I went to a used music store to get a Fender P bass. I tried out about 8 of them, all MIA. They all sounded different. There isn't 'A' P bass or 'A' Jazz bass or 'A' PJ bass.

People here are of course referring to the P bass that literally rose from Leo's hands to the heavens and stands as "The One True P" by which all other basses are judged.

Really, folks get an idea in their head of how a P bass should sound, despite the variability that exists in the real world. It makes threads like this amusing if nothing else.

 

[4001]

I haven't played too many 5 string P or J basses but it seems that the B-string is always a bit floppy and the basses never have that kind of sound I'd expect to hear from a fiver'.

Maybe I'm just partial to leaving Fender basses as a four string beast.

 

[Rib 13]

People here are of course referring to the P bass that literally rose from Leo's hands to the heavens and stands as "The One True P" by which all other basses are judged.

Really, folks get an idea in their head of how a P bass should sound, despite the variability that exists in the real world. It makes threads like this amusing if nothing else.

Well, there is a signature voicing that a mid-mounted passive humbucking pickup will have (just like any pickup placement location will have a signature 'voice') and I think this is the reference.....sure, they will all sound different (bright, dim, bold, crunchy, insert-adjective-here, etc) depending on all kinds of factors including electronics, strings, and the player, but the voicing itself is relative.......I understand what the OP is asking - unfortunately, the answers will all be subjective and hopelessly ambiguous

The correct answer was already given earlier: "Each instrument needs to be judged on its own merits." Extrapolating that further is: "Each player has to judge instruments on their own merits for the wants and needs of the player doing the judging"

 

[Whippet]

'fragmented'?

1. There are definitely instruments where the B string (in particular) have nothing in common with the rest of the strings. You play the E (open or any fretted note) then go play any notes on the B, it sounds like a different bass.

2. I believe string tension sometimes alters the output to the point that some basses clearly are louder on certain strings.
I believe there is a fix. By this I mean by changing the maker of the string it MIGHT help.

3. Uneven tension on string due to the neck. I have no idea how this happens but most likely it's in conjunction with number 2. I noticed on one of my bass, not only was the output different on each string, the the tension was different no matter what string I put on. This makes me believe that it's a problem with the design of the bass itself. I am not going to name this particular bass I am having a problem but don't worry, you'll probably never come across it. If you must know, PM.

4. Preamp. I suspect that two of the basses I have an inherent problem with the wood/pre-amp combination. As I turn up the dials on the bass, the tone of each string starts to have more and more of problem number 1.

So there you go. I am sure the problems I mentioned aren't all that peculiar and it most likely has a lot more reasons than I just mentioned. Some basses I own that have none of the issues are: Dingwall Prima5, Super J5, Xotic Xj1t5, Fbass fret and fretless. These have none or very little of the problems mentioned above.

 

[Whippet]

I play a Marleaux five string with a series/single coil/parallel switch for each pickup (two Delano quad coils). When played in passive mode it has a single tone knob. I can solo the neck pickup, set to single coil, stay off the B string, and it sounds exactly like my old '57 Precision.

which Marleaux is that if you don't mind?

 

[MDBass]

Guys help me out here.

Can a 5 string PJ every be as good as a 4 string P?

For example.

Mas Hino NYC 5 string PJ vs Mas Hino 4 string P / Olinto P / Fender Vintage P

Pedulla MVP 5 string vs Fender P (expensive one)

Roscoe PJ vs Fender P (expensive one)


I picked some high end PJs just to make sure that the basses are all on the same or close price range. of about 3000-4000 bucks.

Can a 5 string get that classic P tone or will the mass in the neck and body not allow it?


Thanks for all information in advance.

Yes

 

[GMC]

One of the problems that a low B with a P bass pickup is that the placement of the pickup isn't optimum for a nice clear and deep B string note. Low B's tend to prefer pickups towards the bridge more than towards the neck. As a pickup is placed closer to the fret board, the sound gets smoother and woollier on a low B. Towards the bridge and the low B will sound tighter, cleaner and punchier.Sure, string choice, pickup brand and electronics can help a lot...but with a P bass it's an uphill struggle to start with. I've played a few 5 string P basses with great low B's but they are few and far between. I tend to find a P/J or P/MM help a lot, even a little blend of the rear PU helps tighten that low B a lot.

 

[Rib 13]

2. I believe string tension sometimes alters the output to the point that some basses clearly are louder on certain strings.
I believe there is a fix. By this I mean by changing the maker of the string it MIGHT help.

3. Uneven tension on string due to the neck. I have no idea how this happens but most likely it's in conjunction with number 2. I noticed on one of my bass, not only was the output different on each string, the the tension was different no matter what string I put on. This makes me believe that it's a problem with the design of the bass itself. I am not going to name this particular bass I am having a problem but don't worry, you'll probably never come across it. If you must know, PM.

Guitars and basses aren't perfectly made: I figure you know that but Im just saying it anyway. For example: some Stingrays are well known for some having dead-spots on the D or G string between the fourth and seventh frets. Its just what it is. If its a huge disparity between string outputs, experimenting with pickup height and Tweaking pole-pieces and balancing saddles comfort/output are big helps but, if thats still not enough, the proper use of a transparent compressor usually solves any problem..... Occasionally, there is a poor design (like the one you mentioned): If this is the case, get a different bass....Anyway, good luck for whatever it is you are looking for

 

[G On Bass]

Having been through dozens of basses in the last however many years, PJ5's turned out to the perfect basses for me. They sound like a P with the front pickup soloed and can get some snap with some J dialed in. Whether or not they sound like the mythical luminescent unicorn 4 string P that people seem to think exists, who knows? As others have said, pickups, strings, eq, amp and technique all play a part. Not only will all basses sound a little different than similar models, the same bass will sound different between different players. I see no reason whatsoever for me to own a 4 string P or J.

Regarding mass, weights vary so much. One of my Wilkins PJ5's weighs less than 8 pounds, which is less than a lot of 4 string basses...No issues with weak B's, except with flats that have a tapered B. But that's a string issue, not bass issue. YMMV

 

[cnltb]

1. There are definitely instruments where the B string (in particular) have nothing in common with the rest of the strings. You play the E (open or any fretted note) then go play any notes on the B, it sounds like a different bass.

2. I believe string tension sometimes alters the output to the point that some basses clearly are louder on certain strings.
I believe there is a fix. By this I mean by changing the maker of the string it MIGHT help.

3. Uneven tension on string due to the neck. I have no idea how this happens but most likely it's in conjunction with number 2. I noticed on one of my bass, not only was the output different on each string, the the tension was different no matter what string I put on. This makes me believe that it's a problem with the design of the bass itself. I am not going to name this particular bass I am having a problem but don't worry, you'll probably never come across it. If you must know, PM.

4. Preamp. I suspect that two of the basses I have an inherent problem with the wood/pre-amp combination. As I turn up the dials on the bass, the tone of each string starts to have more and more of problem number 1.

So there you go. I am sure the problems I mentioned aren't all that peculiar and it most likely has a lot more reasons than I just mentioned. Some basses I own that have none of the issues are: Dingwall Prima5, Super J5, Xotic Xj1t5, Fbass fret and fretless. These have none or very little of the problems mentioned above.

Ah, I see.
Whilst I have my doubts as to the string tension bit in 2. and 3. I do know that sometimes the B doesn't seem to be on the same instrument as the rest of the strings.
I happen to know someone who had a dingwall and returned it because the strings on the treble side and those on the bass side didn't sound 'together'.

 

[two fingers]

I'm right there with you @Whippet and went through the same thing recently when ordering a 5 string bass from Hammersmith.

@MarkoYYZ (owner of Hammersmith) and I talked about it before I placed the order. I wanted a versatile 5, but first and foremost it had to "do the P bass thing". I wanted to incorporate my favorite aspects of my beloved 5 string Fender Precision and a Roscoe Beck Signature 5 I used to own.

So here's how I hopefully got it done (bass should be here sometime in October). I had Hammersmith get Seymour Duncan to make me a 5 string Antiquity II pickup for the bass. That is supposedly wound like a 60s P bass pickup. Then I went with a Duncan NYC 5 at the bridge (kind of a double jazz pickup similar to what is in the Roscoe Beck Sig). For controls I kept it simple. Master.volume and tone. 3 way selector for neck/both/bridge. And a 3 way single/series/parallel switch for the bridge pickup (also borrowed from the Roscoe Beck Signature).

As for a 5 string body and neck affecting the P bass sound, I don't think so. My 5 string P bass sounds like a P bass. As for the electronics of adding a J pickup (and I am willing to defer to those more knowledgeable than I) here's my opinion. If you separate them with a switch you should be good to go. If they are connected by a blend pot I don't think you can totally separate them. They will always interact even if only slightly. Whether that matters would be up to your ears. I chose to play it safe and go with a switch. If I remember I will try to get up with you when the bass comes in and let you know if it works out as well as I think it will.

But it is a legitimate question and one I pondered for quite a while before taking the plunge and ordering a bass with the electronics package I have wanted for years.

Good luck with your tone quest.

 

[tfer]

I have no idea if this is possible, so I'm just throwing it out there, but it should be doable:

Could they put in a three position switch that isolates each pickup in the bridge and neck positions, but in the center, activates a blend knob, so you can use both pickups to a varying degree?

 

[pbassnut]

<<
Can a 5 string PJ every be as good as a 4 string P?
>>

As good? I would say yes. The same? I would say no.

First of all ... hold on a moment while I don my flame retardant suit ... a passive PJ with traditional, old school P and J pickups with either a VVT or VT/VT controls setup will not sound the same as a stock P only with a master V/T controls setup. The loading effect of introducing the J pickup into the circuit affects the sound of the P pickup (in a negative manner, IMHO) even when it is solo'd. However, a passive PJ with a 3-way pickup selector and a master V/T with the P solo'd sounds the same or very, very similar to a P only bass. I switched out a parts PJ I have from a VVT setup to the above 3-way pickup selector with a master V/T configuration and the difference was quite noticeable ... it was almost like taking a blanket off from in front of my bass cabinet. You get less tonal options from this configuration compared to the ability to mix the pickups with the VVT configuration, but the fewer options that are available to you sound better, IMHO.

<<
For example.

Mas Hino NYC 5 string PJ vs Mas Hino 4 string P / Olinto P / Fender Vintage P

Pedulla MVP 5 string vs Fender P (expensive one)

Roscoe PJ vs Fender P (expensive one)


I picked some high end PJs just to make sure that the basses are all on the same or close price range. of about 3000-4000 bucks.

Can a 5 string get that classic P tone or will the mass in the neck and body not allow it?
>>

I don't own any 5 string basses, but have found that the 5th string changes the overall resonance of basses such that (in the case of a 5 string P or J) the EADG strings don't sound the same as on a 4 string P or J. I'm not saying worse or better ... just different. While I've never played any of the above 5 strings you listed, judging from the price range, they all appear to be very high end, custom made basses that undoubtedly employ all the finest components. Part of the classic, old school PBass sound is its inherent cheapness ... bolt on neck, bent plate bridge, multi piece bodies, etc. I've heard claims about various super high end, boutique basses being able to cop the PBass sound, but I remain skeptical. I had an Alembic Series I bass back in the early 80's when I was still playing full time and similar claims were made about them. Even with lotsa chances to experiment with the roughly 600 gigs I played with it, I never came anywhere near a P sound playing it. I certainly got a good sound out of it, just not a P sound.

 

[zortation]

One of the problems that a low B with a P bass pickup is that the placement of the pickup isn't optimum for a nice clear and deep B string note. Low B's tend to prefer pickups towards the bridge more than towards the neck. As a pickup is placed closer to the fret board, the sound gets smoother and woollier on a low B. Towards the bridge and the low B will sound tighter, cleaner and punchier.Sure, string choice, pickup brand and electronics can help a lot...but with a P bass it's an uphill struggle to start with. I've played a few 5 string P basses with great low B's but they are few and far between. I tend to find a P/J or P/MM help a lot, even a little blend of the rear PU helps tighten that low B a lot.

Agreed.

Some makers use a reverse P with a J pickup which might make a slight improvement but I have never played one.

 

[the yeti]

yes.

 

[Sandman64]

I've always preferred the sound of a PJ setup rather than just a P bass. Theirs no denying that a P bass sits well in the mix and that it's really is all you need in most situations etc. However, by its own it sounds rather dull to my ears. Just my 2 cents and I love P basses.

 

[Thummel]

I've compared and contrasted all kinds and config's of basses in live situations many times and for whatever reason(s) nothing really nails the four string pbass tone but a four string pbass. It's just a law of nature. Stop fighting it.

 

[Mr_O'B]

Someone wrote a reply but deleted it. This isn't a troll.

Why can I not compare a Mas Hino NYC 5 string PJ to his 4 string P? There are countless people saying that Mas Hino's P has the same vibe as the original vintage P? Ed Friedland says it too and he surely knows more than me.

I know from playing the MVP that it has its own vibe but the bass actually sounds like it was designed with a P in mind first. So I compare the 5 string version to the Fender.

As to the Roscoe, I believe this was an award winning instrument. It can't be too far off from the original right?


The question is simple. Does that 5 string mass affect the PJ tone? How? Good? Bad?

What versions of the PJ gets it correct without fragmenting the B string so that it sounds as natural as a 4 string version?


Several have said that it's just a tool. It needs to get the job done so long story short it needs to be taken individually. I am going to assume that personal taste comes in too.

Also so many people say, why mess with the original P. Why make an expensive version? A, P is a P. yet we have PJ in 4, 5, and 6 string. Many say that a PJ can never get it right. It's too half baked. But having a Nordstrand Headless and knowing Carey Nordstrands attention to detail, I am pretty sure that PJ nails it correctly. But I am sure it's Carey N's interpretation.

I'd like to get a PJ and long story short I want to get it right. There has to be something about a 4 string P that makes it so special that so many believe there is no point in tampering. This is just my observation and you can believe what you want. I am just curious to what people have to say, that's all.

Great thread! Extremely informative!

 

[sikamikanico]

Good is a matter of preference.

Can it sound the same? Yes, it will be in the ballpark, if it's designed so. 34" scale, pickup position, electronics with a switch etc... But then again, as others have said, even two expensive Fender Ps wont sound the same, there will be variation between basses of the same design.

The bigger issue I have with a five string PJ is the question of "value" - do the extra string and pickup actually contribute anything? For what I'm looking for in a P bass, the answer is no. I like the P precisely because it's simple, balanced and elegant. Adding to it takes away more than contributes. Extra string to mute and play over if I want to play the other four strings. And a pickup that I just keep adjusting rather than adjusting my playing.

So in that sense, no it's not as good as a four string P. It's a personal bias, I can totally understand others might like that arrangement. I'm actually digging a reverse PP design, like Lee Sklar's Frankenstein, but that's arguably not a P anymore anyway...