Hey, I'm no expert and I do recommend listening to the advice of experts. However, that simple repair costs about $100 around this area so I'll take four years of tight seams for a few bucks a bottle any day. It's still hide glue but the solvent is different. For me it's a cost-benefit issue. This is just my personal experience with one bass--not enough data to generalize to the whole community.
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Double Bass Can I glue this top on by myself?
- Thread starter Rusty the Scoob
- Start date
I spent $4 on a half-pound bag of hide glue granules three years ago, gave half of it away after restoring a wrecked carved bass, did a bunch of other repairs and still have plenty left.
Just like prepared foods, most of what you pay for goes to preparation, not quality.
Just like prepared foods, most of what you pay for goes to preparation, not quality.
In other words, if you want to save money and do it yourself, then fine. You can do it with the recommended material, i.e., hide glue granules. No need to use what the experts tell us is a bad choice.
"Bad choice" by what criteria? In my imperfect understanding, the bottled hide glue is considered a bad choice because it tends to weaken more quickly than the granulated hide glue used by the professionals. The solvent in the bottled hide glue apparently is more susceptible to moisture migration that weakens the bond. However, if the bond from the bottled glue is holding well over time then the need is met well by the supposedly bad choice. I live in a high humidity area near the water but the bottled glue is holding well over time so no complaints so far. To carry the conversation further, isn't is more risky to use a glue on seams that is too strong rather than one that is too weak?
I make all of the above comments with an aim toward improved understanding. If my impressions are incorrect, please enlighten.
I make all of the above comments with an aim toward improved understanding. If my impressions are incorrect, please enlighten.
Wouldn't you have preferred to not have to deal with this problem again, now, even though you got 4 years out of your last fix?
You are correct, it is much better for a seam to pop than for the bass to crack. But the consensus seems to be that the bottled hide glue, while arguably more convenient to use, is unstable. Maybe you're just lucky?
I heard a story on another forum, which may or may not be true, about a builder rushing to complete a bass in the days before a trade show. For whatever reason, as the story goes, he used bottled hide glue for every glue joint in the bass...which failed, rather spectacularly, in front of a large crowd of trade show attendees.
I heard a story on another forum, which may or may not be true, about a builder rushing to complete a bass in the days before a trade show. For whatever reason, as the story goes, he used bottled hide glue for every glue joint in the bass...which failed, rather spectacularly, in front of a large crowd of trade show attendees.
On the subject of substitute glues, what's the consensus on using food-grade gelatine granules? I did this for a small length of seam recently, as I had a gig coming up and not enough time to take my bass to a luthier or order hide glue granules. I figured it would at least do no harm. Frank Ford seems to be relatively positive about the idea ([Invalid or Expired Link Removed]), though he's a guitar luthier rather than a bass specialist.
I think we all would prefer not to have to deal with this problem. But having seams glued by the professionals, who presumably use granulated hide glue, has not guaranteed that the problem the problem is solved. This has been my experience with the two basses I've owned. I accept that the seams will open sometimes given the variation in environmental conditions across performance and rehearsal venues. Four years without a pop is a good average for me. I do try my best to be gentle with the bass and allow it to adapt slowly to environmental changes but, again, no guarantees.
http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/IMAG0377.jpg
I spended $40 making like 30 clamps, for your project you will need a lot less clamps...
I spended $40 making like 30 clamps, for your project you will need a lot less clamps...
All I can add, is that I've had 2 or 3 seam repairs in the 35 years I've owned my bass. Chicago climate has everything and is very hard on string instruments. I have had a couple of rib cracks due to winter dryness, so maybe the glue concentration was too strong for a seam to give first, but I think, all in all, the granulated hide glue has been working very well for me, better than a repair every four years.
My reasons for leaning towards DIY'ing this repar are:
1. I want to use the bass next Wednesday for a gig
2. Seems simple enough, even with real, non-bottled hide glue
3. I haven't looked for a shop in my area yet.
4. Seems like I should be able to fix the problem myself in less time than it takes to find a shop, much less travel there and back
5. This bass not definitely mine. I'm not really clear if my father-in-law gave it to me or loaned it to me.
6. There are about a half-dozen other earlier repairs that look pretty heinous, which said father-in-law probably performed.
My reasons for finding a shop are:
1. I'd be tempted to have a really good setup done on this, with lighter strings and an adjustable bridge. And then they'd want to look at the other repairs, etc etc and suddenly I've spent $500 on a bass that I may not even own and probalby won't play all that often.
So, followup question. If I use this bass on Wednesday, is there something that I can do as a temporary fix, just to keep it from getting worse in transport?
1. I want to use the bass next Wednesday for a gig
2. Seems simple enough, even with real, non-bottled hide glue
3. I haven't looked for a shop in my area yet.
4. Seems like I should be able to fix the problem myself in less time than it takes to find a shop, much less travel there and back
5. This bass not definitely mine. I'm not really clear if my father-in-law gave it to me or loaned it to me.
6. There are about a half-dozen other earlier repairs that look pretty heinous, which said father-in-law probably performed.
My reasons for finding a shop are:
1. I'd be tempted to have a really good setup done on this, with lighter strings and an adjustable bridge. And then they'd want to look at the other repairs, etc etc and suddenly I've spent $500 on a bass that I may not even own and probalby won't play all that often.
So, followup question. If I use this bass on Wednesday, is there something that I can do as a temporary fix, just to keep it from getting worse in transport?
Duct tape, LOL!!! I'd ask your father in law what the deal is If it is yours now, you can get it fixed/setup the way you want.
Jake deVilliers
Commercial User
- May 24, 2006
- 6,349
- 607
- Disclosures
- Owner of The Bass Spa, String Repairman at Long & McQuade Vancouver
Go ahead and glue it yourself. Wash/scrape out all the old glue, glue it with bottled 'hide' and clamp it quickly.
Worst case is that the shop that eventually gets it on the bench will need to re-do the repair. Unless you're a ham-fisted dolt you won't have caused any permanent damage.
Worst case is that the shop that eventually gets it on the bench will need to re-do the repair. Unless you're a ham-fisted dolt you won't have caused any permanent damage.
I'm not a luthier and I don't play one on TV.
When it comes to luthiery, I defer to the experts. It is those experts who have identified bottled hide glue as a relatively "bad choice." If you want to know the criteria used to make that judgment, you'd have to ask them.My understanding is that you are correct. One doesn't want to use a glue that is too strong. Granulated hide glue, as used by and as recommended by professionals, is not too strong. It is THE glue of choice and has been for centuries. When plates move with changes in temperature and humidity or when some insult to the instrument occurs, you want the seam to pop rather than have the top crack. Granulated hide glue, as I understand, is the optimum choice.
No, there are no guarantees. Still, it seems to make sense to make optimal choices so as to minimize problems. The fact that seams open even when professionally glued doesn't necessarily reflect a failure. It often reflects the planned occurrence of the glue giving way before damage occurs. I think of it as a safety valve. You want it to blow whenever there's real danger but only when there's real danger. The experts tell us that the best choice is granulated hide glue, while bottled hide glue is decidedly non-optimal. Your experience, valid as it is, represents a miniscule sample compared to the collective experience of the luthiers we know and trust. When those experts recommend granulated hide glue over bottled, I think it's wise to listen.
I've seen Jake give the go-ahead to bottled hide glue in a pinch. That makes practical sense. Still, I'm quite sure that I know which he'd tell you is greatly preferred.
