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Can we talk about marijuana?

Kwesi said:
My slice of the anecdote pie:

All the people I know that smoke weed are students with a 3.5GPA or above working towards a B.S. in bio or biochem. Besides my friends in engineering, they are the hardest working people I know.

My anecdote would be that I know know people who smoke who are very smart, and I know people that smoke who are not. To me, it's just like alcohol-everyone reacts to it differently, whether it be an angry drunk, happy drunk, whatever. People with addictive personalities get hooked, people without them don't. I have yet to see enough people do one thing with it to classify it as either good or bad, addictive or not, blah blah or not blah blah. If some guy comes on talkbass and says that his friend lost his mind because he smoked some weed, I would be inclined to believe they had some deeper issues and if it was alcohol, we'd all just pass them off as a drunk.

I feel like I've heard a lot of the legalize it vs. Kill it with fire (no pun intended lol) and it really seems like it's one of those things where you aren't going to change people's minds. I am not a libertarian, but I do place it in my 'do what you want' category. If you don't want it, don't ingest it, if you do, I'll bring the pizza.
 
Wrong. 30 years ago I realized that drugs and alcohol provided absolutely nothing positive in my life. Further, I've watched them destroy numerous lives around me. I'm fully aware of the recreational aspects of drug use, but there is no long-term benefit to it. Maybe after you see enough of it you'll come to the same realization, but right now you're still in your immortal and omniscient phase.

Haha, nice attempt to degrade my opinions just because I'm young and because all youth MUST believe they are right and everyone else is wrong.

I'd be the first person to tell you that drugs can have very negative consequences for some of its users. The key word, however, is some. Some personality and physiological types of people are predisposed to react negatively to drugs. Many other, however, can go about life as moderate users and turn out as right and normal as any non user.

If drugs have proven to be no benefit to you then so be it. For many others they can add something positive to their lives. The story that other TB'er told us in regards to his wife is one such example of how drugs can make things 'normal' for a person or family, even for just a brief moment in time.

Maybe you should reconsider the infinite amount of wisdom you've gained over the years and tinker with the idea that you might be wrong.
 
My anecdote would be that I know know people who smoke who are very smart, and I know people that smoke who are not. To me, it's just like alcohol-everyone reacts to it differently, whether it be an angry drunk, happy drunk, whatever. People with addictive personalities get hooked, people without them don't. I have yet to see enough people do one thing with it to classify it as either good or bad, addictive or not, blah blah or not blah blah. If some guy comes on talkbass and says that his friend lost his mind because he smoked some weed, I would be inclined to believe they had some deeper issues and if it was alcohol, we'd all just pass them off as a drunk.

I feel like I've heard a lot of the legalize it vs. Kill it with fire (no pun intended lol) and it really seems like it's one of those things where you aren't going to change people's minds. I am not a libertarian, but I do place it in my 'do what you want' category. If you don't want it, don't ingest it, if you do, I'll bring the pizza.

But people's minds are changing! Marijuana approval is higher than it's ever been and I see no reason why that trend would not continue. I don't smoke and I don't plan on it but I might vape it one day. Time will tell. I'm totally with you on the pizza, high or not ;).
 
Kwesi said:
But people's minds are changing! Marijuana approval is higher than it's ever been and I see no reason why that trend would not continue. I don't smoke and I don't plan on it but I might vape it one day. Time will tell. I'm totally with you on the pizza, high or not ;).

I agree with you that people are fighting for it more than ever (or maybe I've just been spending my time with different people lol) but I don't think I have ever witnessed a person who changed their mind on it, but I have seen more people being vocal about it, which is good. If it gets legalized, I'd use it. No, I wouldn't use it before going to work, or any time I needed to be responsible, like the anti-crowd seems to assume that everyone would, but I'd use it just like alcohol, which is currently legal today.

I think that people get too nervous about it anyways. I happen to know more people that have ruined their life pursuing a life in music, but I don't hear anyone trying to outlaw that.
 
When you can show me an example of someone who only smokes marijuana breaking into a house and stealing a TV to finance their habit, I'll agree with you.

This is as ridiculous as Harry anslinger saying its from the devil cause black jazz players smoke it. And don't forget the evil Jewish community, they are all up in that too. Why don't you people really find out why it's illegal. Mostly because people wanted to advance their career(Harry) or want their competition out of the way like the paper mogal willam randaolph Hurst.

Well, just to be clear, I was not saying all users are criminals, I was responding to someone who basically seemed to say we shouldn't be talking about it.

Marijuana and Crime: Is there a Connection Beyond Prohibition?
 
from the report... the last bit of page 35, and page 36 of the Summary.

....Thirty years later, we confirm this conclusion and add that continued
criminalization of cannabis remains unjustified based on scientific data on the danger it
poses.
The Commission heard and considered the same arguments on the dangers of
using cannabis: apathy, loss of interest and concentration, learning difficulties. A
majority of the Commissioners concluded that these concerns, while unsubstantiated,
warranted a restrictive policy. Thirty years later, we assert that the studies done in the
meantime have not confirmed the existence of the so-called amotivational syndromeand add that most studies rule out this syndrome as a consequence of the use of
cannabis.
The Commission concluded that not enough was known about the long-term and
excessive use of cannabis. We assert that these types of use exist and may present some
health risks; excessive use, however, is limited to a minority of users. Public policy, we
would add, must provide ways to prevent and screen for at-risk behaviour, something
our policies have yet to do.
The Commission concluded that the effects of long-term use of cannabis on brain
function, while largely exaggerated, could affect adolescent development. We concur,
but point out that the long-term effects of cannabis use appear reversible in most cases.
We note also that adolescents who are excessive users or become long-term users are a
tiny minority of all users of cannabis. Once again, we would add that a public policy
must prevent use at an early age and at-risk behaviour.
The Commission was concerned that the use of cannabis would lead to the use of
other drugs. Thirty years' experience in the Netherlands disproves this clearly, as do the
liberal policies of Spain, Italy and Portugal. And here in Canada, despite the growing
increase in cannabis users, we have not had a proportionate increase in users of hard
drugs.
The Commission was also concerned that legalization would mean increased use,
among the young in particular. We have not legalized cannabis, and we have one of the
highest rates in the world. Countries adopting a more liberal policy have, for the most
part, rates of usage lower than ours, which stabilized after a short period of growth.
Thirty years later, we note that:
- Billions of dollars have been sunk into enforcement without any greater effect. There
are more consumers, more regular users and more regular adolescent users;
- Billions of dollars have been poured into enforcement in an effort to reduce supply,
without any greater effect. Cannabis is more available than ever, it is cultivated on a
large scale, even exported, swelling coffers and making organized crime more
powerful; and
- There have been tens of thousands of arrests and convictions for the possession of
cannabis and thousands of people have been incarcerated. However, use trends
remain totally unaffected and the gap the Commission noted between the law and
public compliance continues to widen.
It is time to recognize what is patently obvious: our policies have been ineffective,
because they are poor policies.

I think it's worth noting that the report agrees there are valid risks in marijuana use. It's really about the government response to marijuana, not whether it is good or bad per se.

I mentioned earlier that I have an ex-heroin addict brother. He now lives a more normal life, supported by methadone. He once said to me words to the effect of "Whatever health issues heroin creates, it is only a social issue in terms of crime because the government makes it so".

Now, I am not saying dope is on a par with heroin, nor am I saying heroin is good. I am simply supporting the notion that trying manage marijuana use by making it a crime may cause more problems than it solves.

P.S. I don't believe there is such a thing as an unbiased report on a topic like marijuana. Everyone comes in with a personal agenda, and depending who is on the committee the outcome may have been always predictable. We have a similar debate here in Australia.
 
The idea of presenting 2 sides of this and letting them figure it out on their own sounds great on paper, but in reality seems ludicrous to me. And I still don't know the other side. I will absolutely be telling them that I know of the "perceived" benefits. I know why they smoke. They know why they smoke. But it seems there's an ounce of benefit to a gallon of reasons against.

The fact is that there is not an open and shut case here. Any reasonable person will see there are multiple sides to the debate, many more than two.

To me personally the risk of psychosis is enough. But most people will know someone who has smoked dope for years without apparent ill effects, and so no sort of blanket demonisation will seem credible. I don't use, and I have seen first hand cases where it has been harmful, yet I wouldn't buy such an argument for a minute.
 
Well ill say this. I've been smoking daily for 12 years now and still have a full time management position in my supermarkets dairy department, which accounts for 45% of the weeks sales. I must be doing something right if I'm still here. ..

Putting the counter argument, without in any way belittling your successes in life.

First, how do you know that you would not have achieved more without the dope?

Secondly, I have known alcoholics who functioned successfully for years. Sometimes they kept functioning. Other times some life event tipped the balance, they lost control of their drinking, and everything went bad. I am not sure the same thing couldn't happen with dope.....the balance tips from it being a stress release to a place where you run away from your problems then never come back.

No a black and white argument...others have pointed out that helping you deal with stress may be a good thing, it may help you think more clearly. But are you strong enough to know you can stop any time you want to?
 
P.S. I don't believe there is such a thing as an unbiased report on a topic like marijuana. Everyone comes in with a personal agenda, and depending who is on the committee the outcome may have been always predictable. We have a similar debate here in Australia.

When people stop breaking into my house and stealing my TV so they can sell it cheap to finance their habit I'll agree with you.


To use your own words that you directed at me:

Feel free to post links to evidence if you have any, and if not, why did you see that statement as necessary?


Provided you acknowledge it as opinion, not based on fact, you are welcome to your perspective.



What's that glass houses idiom?......you should read up on it.
 
On the other hand, you could argue that he might not of been as successful without it. There's really no way you can know either way. What you can know, however, is that some people have managed to be daily smokers and live very successful and fulfilling lives. It really just comes down to the individual in question.
 
To use your own words that you directed at me:


Provided you acknowledge it as opinion, not based on fact, you are welcome to your perspective.



What's that glass houses idiom?......you should read up on it.

Missing your point?

There are facts and there are perspectives. Everyone has biases. You basically claimed that Da Vinci, Shakespeare and Monet were users, without evidence. If you had said, I think they could have been users, I would have said maybe. If you had cited someone who is a successful known user, say McCartney, I would have agreed with you. But you didn't do either of those.

Re the robbery comment, see the link I posted. Supporting evidence, from a government agency.

The glass in my house seems intact on this one, to me at least.
 
On the other hand, you could argue that he might not of been as successful without it. There's really no way you can know either way. What you can know, however, is that some people have managed to be daily smokers and live very successful and fulfilling lives. It really just comes down to the individual in question.

Absolutely. That was the point of my last paragraph. No disagreement here.