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Can You Tell The Difference??? ASH vs. ALDER

WHICH IS ALDER? WHICH IS ASH?

  • 1-A and 2-A are Alder, 1-B and 2-B are Ash.

    Votes: 17 15.7%

  • 1-A and 2-A are Ash, 1-B and 2-B are Alder.

    Votes: 48 44.4%

  • I can hear a difference between the "1" recordings, but not the "2" recordings

    Votes: 16 14.8%

  • I can hear a difference between the "2" recordings, but not the "1" recordings

    Votes: 3 2.8%

  • I can't hear a difference between any of them!

    Votes: 24 22.2%
  • Total voters
    108
#622
-=DanAtkinson=- said:
EDIT: The answers are revealed in post 79.

Ok, we've all seen the recent threads about how wood "matters". This has been a heated debate around here for ages, and I'm sure it always will be.

My position is that wood indeed DOES matter. However, I believe it matters very little. Other factors contribute to tone much more than wood choice (like pickups, strings, neck construction, the player, etc).

But many folks wholeheartedly believe that wood has a HUGE impact on tone, and some even defend the premise almost like they're defending a religion.

Well, I love recording bass. So I decided to test the theory.

Here is what I did: I used two Fender MIM Jazz basses, one Alder and one Ash. I recorded a couple of tracks with one, then took it apart and swapped out the body. Everything else was left the same: pickups, bridge, strings, neck, tuners, etc. I spent time making sure the pickup height was the same, and the string to pickup distance the same.

I play 2 different bass parts on each bass. "Walkabout" by RHCP and "The Lemon Song" by Zeppelin. Here are the files. You can right-click to save them to your desktop:


(It's critical that you listen to these clips with headphones or good speakers!)

I won't say which is which yet. I want to wait at least a couple of days to let people guess and build anticipation. :p Please vote for your picks using the vote box above, and also post a comment with your picks. Share your analysis and prediction!

Now, to my ears, these clips all sound VERY similar. IMO, this is proof that wood type has very little impact on tone. Some of you "wood matters" believers might try to find fault in my test methodology. Some of you may be inclined to say, "There's no way you could match the string to pickup spacing exactly" or "Whenever you record different takes they will always sound slightly different because of changes in playing". Well, the problem with this logic is that it backs you into a corner. You see, if tiny variations like those are all it takes to make an Ash body sound more like Alder (or vice versa), then obviously wood doesn't matter as much as you think, and other factors have more impact. :cool:

So, anyway, let's get this started. Let's see those votes!
Click to expand...

I'm way late in the game, but I'm going to guess (before reading through the thread).

My guess is,

First clips were ....Alder

Second clips were ....Ash

Now I'll read through the tread and see how well I did:D
 
#624
-=DanAtkinson=- said:
Ok, drumroll please........

1-A is Ash, 2-A is Alder.

1-B is Alder, 2-B is Alder.
(I literally played it once, then played it again on the same bass) :D

So only 14% of people got it right. Was using Alder for both Lemon Song clips a dirty trick? Yep. But it was an educational dirty trick, for sure. Let's take a look at some quotes about the Lemon Song clips:

"Lemon Song A has a presence in the midrange that I generally associate with alder, and Lemon Song B has a fullness to the low end that is indicative of ash." (This one from Spencer! is my personal favorite)​

"...the A's definitely sound different from the B's."

"Although It was harder for me to tell on the first 2 files. But when I listened to the second 2 files I felt like "B" sounded softer or more mid scooped/mellow"

"If you put these clips on a scope you'll see the differences in the frequency plots. That says to me wood makes a difference."​
And that's just after the first 3 pages. So people swore they could hear a noticeable difference in tone FROM THE EXACT SAME BASS. To me, this is more evidence that body wood has minimal impact on tone, and that tone is far more impacted by other factors, including our own heads.

“First of all (and speaking from a steel string guitar perspective), let’s discard the notion that some species of wood make good instruments and that others don’t. The concept of tonewood is a hoax. Of the few things that we can do to a guitar and still call it a guitar, changing the wood it is made of will have the least impact upon the quality of the sound that it produces. The tone of a guitar lies more in the hands of the builder than in the materials from which it is constructed.”​
That quote is from John Calkin (from the Guild of American Luthiers) in his article “The Heretic’s Guide to Alternative Lutherie Woods”.

It's a very educational read. Check it out: The Heretic's Guide to Alternative Lutherie Woods
Click to expand...

you need a back pickup to hear things well...the sound of the instrument is produced AT THE BRIDGE and travels a SHORT distance up the string. By the time you get to a pre-bass pickup position, MOST of what you hear is not influenced by body or fingerboard woods, it's compressed steel-on-magnet string sounds only...its the back pickup where the MOST wood sound will be. And that being said, through a good bass rig, live, in a room, everybody but tone-deaf morons will be able to tell the difference. Recorded, through the internet, compressed multiple times up and down, even with good headphones...forget it.

Can you see the crackelure on the Mona Lisa on a small jpeg on the internet? Nope...so does it exist? Yup...

:rollno::scowl::spit:

The ignorance continues and perpetuates itself live here on Talkbass...

Sincerely,
Cameron
 
#628
can't vote so I'll post and then go looking for post #79.

I hear a bit more of a bite/shine not sure how to describe it on 1A in comparison to 1B. The notes seem to glisten just touch more to me.

On the 2A and 2B, I'll be damned but I don't hear anything going on. I'm trying to hear it but just can't. I guess the wood doesn't make as big of a difference. At least not with you and how you play.


EDIT: Didn't have to search, the answer was here on the last page. Sneaky little trick on the 2's. I listened to it like ten times and was beginning to doubt myself. Next test should be Walnut and Mahogany. A very bright tonewood and a very dark and warm tonewood.
 
#629
-=DanAtkinson=- said:
Precisely. I've made that point over, and over, and over, and over. It's a self-defeating argument.

And by the way, even the tonewood believers would laugh at the notion that only the bridge pickup can detect tonal differences in wood. What nonsense.
Click to expand...

Dan

Another raging debate that I'd like to test is the P / J / PJ sound test... You know - does the front p'up of a J sound different enough from a P to be noticeable? How about a PJ? I've read over and over how some folks insist that they can tell a difference in the tone of a bass if you install a J p'up in the bridge position, even if you run with that p'up off...

If I had a P-bass, I'd set up this test myself...

By the way - I'm a bit of a "tonewood" believer, but only as it affects an individual bass, if you follow.
 
#630
I would like to hear this too.

I've always been a J player, but lately I've picked up a few P basses of various types (MIA P5, MIA P5 Deluxe, Yamaha BB415). To my ear, the neck J pickup does not get the mid-focused sound of a P. It has too many lows and is too mushy in the mids. Could it fool somebody in the mix? Sure. On a solo recording? Probably. But I think it makes enough of a difference that it matters to the player, at least if that player is me.
 
#631
BigOldHarry said:
Dan

Another raging debate that I'd like to test is the P / J / PJ sound test... You know - does the front p'up of a J sound different enough from a P to be noticeable? How about a PJ? I've read over and over how some folks insist that they can tell a difference in the tone of a bass if you install a J p'up in the bridge position, even if you run with that p'up off...

If I had a P-bass, I'd set up this test myself...

By the way - I'm a bit of a "tonewood" believer, but only as it affects an individual bass, if you follow.
Click to expand...

Great idea.

In the meantime, this video might help somewhat: YouTube - J sounds like a P.
 
#633
Wow, I got the right answer! Definitely loving the sound of ash @ the low notes!
This is coming from a guy who loves his plywood P-bass and plays other basses that are alder.

A few years ago, I hated the look of natural ash. It reminded me of those ugly school desks with laminated tops. Then I fell in love with dyed finishes on ash (Warwick). This thread gave me more reason to admire ash. Thanks!
 
#636
dvh said:
If the differences in tone are that negligible then for all practical purposes they don't exist.
Click to expand...

I think that's true as far as you audience is concerned even for recordings. But is it true for the player? I don't think so! I DID immediately spot the first one as Ash through the "edge" and characteristics that make me prefer ash bodies even though quite frankly I did NOT expect to be able to pick it out of a set of recordings. I incorrectly assumed that there were two ash recordings and got confused by the second set of recordings.

But as it turned out I picked it right out correctly even though I didn't know I did! In fact, it seemed like the differences in this test not only met with my expectations of what Ash and Alder sound like but were much more clear than some other tests we've had here. Yeah minor differences but still a very interesting experiment!

But my point is that even if you couldn't hear a difference and the difference is so minor that your listeners won't hear because obviously your fingers and the technique you use FAR overshadow any wood effect, YOU as a player can sense the difference in the wood! And for that reason "tonewood" is important to ME! If you don't notice any difference or care, well that obviously is OK too, but I do.

A truer test (and pretty hard to do) would be to have two painted basses identical except for body wood and have people play them and try to guess the wood in each one. I'm betting more people would get it right.
 

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