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Can You Tell The Difference??? ASH vs. ALDER

WHICH IS ALDER? WHICH IS ASH?

  • 1-A and 2-A are Alder, 1-B and 2-B are Ash.

    Votes: 17 15.7%

  • 1-A and 2-A are Ash, 1-B and 2-B are Alder.

    Votes: 48 44.4%

  • I can hear a difference between the "1" recordings, but not the "2" recordings

    Votes: 16 14.8%

  • I can hear a difference between the "2" recordings, but not the "1" recordings

    Votes: 3 2.8%

  • I can't hear a difference between any of them!

    Votes: 24 22.2%
  • Total voters
    108
#142
JimiLL said:
Well yes the way you set it up it would be difficult to achieve anything but a 14% success rate.
Click to expand...

True, unfortunately. It proves only how suggestible we are and how poorly conceived this experiment is.

In my mind's eye I can see so many of you rolling your eyes at these comments, but flawed reasoning and poorly framed experiments have enabled theories to stand for centuries in spite of them being incorrect.


Basic scientific method- ignore it at your peril when testing a theory.
 
#143
johnk_10 said:
total BS. compression will always mask the results of a direct comparison, especially in a bass's attack.




yes. i call hear it every time when i switch between my two identical basses (except for the woods used).




can you hear a difference in these two tracks? (and this is with a drum machine playing, with no compression directly into a zoom H4)

Invalid Link Removed
Invalid Link Removed
Click to expand...
I could hear a difference, but just like with the first two recordings in this thread, the differences were too subtle for me to begin to explain what was different about them.

I think some of the posts in this thread though are making people forget TONE IS SUBJECTIVE.
 
#144
One Drop said:
Great answer! I can see you have a scientific mind and aren't afraid to challenge YOUR OWN preconceptions.
Click to expand...

This also gets a jeez from my scientific brain. :-)

The difference is subtle but real. Swamp ash and alder similar in weight will sound similarly but have subtle differences. Why do people get so bent out of shape on this? Every component on a bass affects the bass in one way or another (sonically or aesthetically). A bass is a sum of its parts. Play what you like and don't play what you don't like. Simple.
 
#145
-=DanAtkinson=- said:
I love how now that that the answers are revealed and many folks have been proven wrong, they want to nitpick and try to discredit this incredibly simple, illustrative experiment.
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I love how you think that discrediting anyone who disagrees with your premise makes a difference to the quality of the experiment.

It's a pretty big nit, and if you think you've solved a long-standing question that is of great practical interest to many luthiers, and that has divided them for some years now, with this so-called experiment, you are wrong. Your experiment might be useful as a psychological one, I'll give you that.

The experiment is illustrative, but only of the difficulty of framing an experiment that is useful in testing a theory.
 
#146
What I took away from this is that changing a MAJOR component on a bass changes the tone but there are no hard and fast rules on "how". This coincides with my personal experience of playing since the 5th grade in that I have never ran into two identical electric instruments that sound the same.
 
#147
Alright, I'm almost sick of this thread but I do have one more thing to say that I think is very important!

All factors have an impact on tone:

*Body wood
*Neck wood
*Fingerboard wood (large impact)
*Strings (large impact)
*Nut material ie. graphite, bone, tusq
*String height/tension
*Pickups (large impact)
*Neck reinforcement
*Neck joint
*On board electronics/tone controlls (large impact)
*Technique/playing style (largest impact)
*Bridge mass

Plus if you are listening to the instrument live these also have MAJOR impact:

*The amp
*The speaker(s)
*The room (HUGE impact)

If you happen to be listening to a recorded bass ALL of the above are already in play plus:

*The DI and/or mic
*The mic pre
*EQ/processing
*The ears of the engineer (Major impact)
*The rest of the mix (Huge impact)

So what have we learned? Even The OP Dan says wood has some impact on tone. Others believe it has a major influence. I, (wood matters member #18 btw) believe it's very important but when you add up all the other factors it can only be so influential. Before you say it Dan, I know you tried to remove all the variables form your test, not bashing it. So, I listed up to twenty factors that effect tone, and heck I probably forgot a few, but even if all factors were divided evenly (and we know they are not) wood would only be one-twentieth of the equation. Since we know some factors weigh more heavily than others perhaps it's less, perhaps it's more, but who can say precisely?

Coclusion? Dan's test was slightly skewed to swing the debate to his side, but it was an interesting test and he did make a compelling argument!

I will still wear my Official Wood Matters Member #18 badge proudly, I never said it was the end-all-be-all-tone factor. Seems like in the end, we are both right. My main bass is an Ash Body Jazz, and when I go to purchase another it will still be something different for variety! :D
 
#150
Dan, you gave us false information to begin with "I recorded two tracks with each bass" then you gave us constricted parameters in your poll, none of which were the "correct" choice.

Most people picked out the ash bodied 1-A, but (myself included) were just searching for another track to fulfil your original statement that there were "two of each".

Good one, you fooled us. Well, not really. Skew the info and the playing field like that and it proves WHAT?

Not ****.
 
#151
Mark Latimour said:
FWIW I didn't vote, but your methodology was poor from a testing point of view. If you rerun it I'd suggest not telling people that you have used different basses if you haven't as that primes the result. Just say I have a bunch of clips, some were recorded with different basses, some the same basses and some the same clips. Guess which is which.
Click to expand...

Even better, two clips played repeatedly one after another in various random pair combinations where each subject is asked to determine whether there is a difference or not in the way the two sound. Then correlate the results to the correct answers. No reason to identify woods, it has nothing to do with the premise of whether different woods affect tone. Real basic stuff.
 
#154
Mark Latimour said:
But that effect is well known and doesn't need to be shown. Neither does the effect of the OP saying "here's two clips recorded with two different basses, tell me if you can hear a difference" on the results. The effects of these suggestions on the outcomes of tests are not in dispute. I'm only suggesting that the method could have been improved. The "trick" was good at showing a well known effect, but not at demonstrating that there was no audible difference between wood tones (on which I think the difference, if any, is subtle). There's also a heirachy of questions to be considered:

1. Can would affect the sound of a solid bodied electric instrument?

2. If so, can a human ear hear the difference in sound?

3. If so, is the difference significant enough to warrant using different woods?

4. If so, is the difference significant enough to warrant using different woods in real world playing situations?
Click to expand...

We get some insights into those questions as well. For ash and alder wood bodies, the effects on tone are minimal but not zero.
 
#155
fish slapper said:
That was my perception as well but the difference to my ears was very subtle.
Click to expand...

well, when playing the two basses thru any one of my amps at home, even my wife (a non-musician) can hear a dramatic (not subtle) difference in a blindfold test, and she prefers bass1 by a pretty big margin.
 
#159
Mark Latimour said:
The problem with this test is that the OP told people that clips A and B in each category were recorded using two different basses. That automatically creates the mental impression that there will be a discernable difference between tracks A and B in category 2 even if there was not...
Click to expand...

Yep. Sorry, Dan, when you said you recoded a couple of tracks with each bass it made it sound as if one had to be ash and the other had to be alder for EACH tune. Most people picked A as ash based on the fact that is was ash and sounded like ash in the first tune, and the assumption that it had to be on the second track as well.

All that said, we are talking about a somewhat subtle difference. I'd rock either bass and not look back! :)
 
#160
Wow. You know, I can't help but laugh at some of these posts. You naysayers are just too much.

This reminds me of what happened over at Gearslutz when I posted a similar blind test between a $40 preamp and a $2300 preamp. Most people picked the cheap one as sounding better, and when I revealed they had picked the $40 unit there was mass nitpicking of the test methods, defensiveness, etc. Here's the thread: Invalid Link Removed

The truth is, no matter what method I used to conduct this test, the naysayers would find fault if the results didn't agree with their views.
 
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