JimiLL said:
Only 14% got the answer right.
I can't see how anyone could view these results of proof that people can successfully identify differenes in wood tone. A group of monkeys would be just as likely to guess correctly 14%.
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Can You Tell The Difference??? ASH vs. ALDER
- Thread starter -=DanAtkinson=-
- Start date
Only 14% got the answer right.
I can't see how anyone could view these results of proof that people can successfully identify differenes in wood tone. A group of monkeys would be just as likely to guess correctly 14%.
- Feb 16, 2008
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- John K Custom Basses
IMO, no compression in the signal chain should have been used at all to make the clips, and the basses should have been recorded with as close to a straight wire as possible.
Well yes the way you set it up it would be difficult to achieve anything but a 14% success rate.
This reminds me of the time an old bass teacher told me to "pick out any note...Ill close my eyes... and tell you what it is".
So the first 3 out of 4 he got no problem. The fourth note he couldnt get, and he rolled his eyes at me when he saw I bent a note way up
The problem with this test is that the OP told people that clips A and B in each category were recorded using two different basses. That automatically creates the mental impression that there will be a discernable difference between tracks A and B in category 2 even if there was not. However, the question remains, was there a difference between A & B in category 2, even if subtle (ie hand playing position may have slightly affected the tone creating a difference)? If so, no one could be expected to pick the answer correctly since there is an audible difference (not due to wood) and the OP said there would be a different wood used. Basically ruining the chance of meaningful results.
Can I suggest the OP rerun the experiment but with 4 or 6 of the same clip played with different basses and the same basses and sometimes the clips doubled and just let people guess (rather than vote) which is which. I think that is closer to blind testing than what the OP did here.
Can I suggest the OP rerun the experiment but with 4 or 6 of the same clip played with different basses and the same basses and sometimes the clips doubled and just let people guess (rather than vote) which is which. I think that is closer to blind testing than what the OP did here.
- Jun 25, 2006
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I'd say it proves that different woods can sound the same. I've played two identical alder-bodied basses that sounded completely different, so it's clear to me that wood can have a huge impact on the tone.
I love how now that that the answers are revealed and many folks have been proven wrong, they want to nitpick and try to discredit this incredibly simple, illustrative experiment.
Dan Atkinson said:
The questions asked does indicate that there can be some bogus going on *lol*
But the original post by Dan does (last sentence) sort of indicate that each bass had one recording. So yes, that is a little bit deceiving.
However, I think Dan has made his point ultimately clear... there are not HUGE differences in tone between Alder and Ash.
Personally, I would like to hear the difference (if any) between a supposedly bright wood like maple, and a warm and dark wood like mahogany. Just to see if such "extreme" (if real) differences can be spotted.
FWIW I didn't vote, but your methodology was poor from a testing point of view. If you rerun it I'd suggest not telling people that you have used different basses if you haven't as that primes the result. Just say I have a bunch of clips, some were recorded with different basses, some the same basses and some the same clips. Guess which is which.
Not so IMHO. It's not unusual to have a little trickery in these type of tests. I don't think you'd get a PhD off of it and the statisticians wouldn't like it but it does offer some anecdotes on the influence of suggestion both by the OP and by the initial responders.
I do agree a better test would be to just post a bunch of clips, some from the same bass and some from basses made from woods with bigger differences in properties.
I listened as best I could to all four and couldn't hear enough of a difference between any of them (and voted that way). I'm also not convinced the wood used in the body makes much of a difference other than total weight. Don't know about the wood used in the neck though - is tone contribution from the neck due more to design or material?
johnk_10 said:
That's not a realistic real-world test. On a studio track your bass would pass through far more processing stages. The same goes for live gigs.
Then, add drums and guitar and keys and vocals. And you honestly think you could hear a difference between body woods??
But that effect is well known and doesn't need to be shown. Neither does the effect of the OP saying "here's two clips recorded with two different basses, tell me if you can hear a difference" on the results. The effects of these suggestions on the outcomes of tests are not in dispute. I'm only suggesting that the method could have been improved. The "trick" was good at showing a well known effect, but not at demonstrating that there was no audible difference between wood tones (on which I think the difference, if any, is subtle). There's also a heirachy of questions to be considered:
1. Can would affect the sound of a solid bodied electric instrument?
2. If so, can a human ear hear the difference in sound?
3. If so, is the difference significant enough to warrant using different woods?
4. If so, is the difference significant enough to warrant using different woods in real world playing situations?
- Feb 16, 2008
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total BS. compression will always mask the results of a direct comparison, especially in a bass's attack.
yes. i call hear it every time when i switch between my two identical basses (except for the woods used).
can you hear a difference in these two tracks? (and this is with a drum machine playing, with no compression directly into a zoom H4)
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- Jun 25, 2006
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- Owner, Pike Amplification & 3Leaf Audio
No nitpicking, I was fooled by the test. I've been fooled by real basses as well - I've played alder basses that sounded just like ash is "supposed" to sound. But the test didn't prove that woods don't make a difference, because they do.
For me to notice a difference in a full band situation, the basses have to be vastly different in tone. I didn't perceive 1A and 1B to be vastly different so IMO the difference in the lows I heard could be masked by the rest of a band.
My "real world" test is at a gig and I can tell you that in a Classic Rock cover band with a heavy handed drummer and a lead guitarist who's Mesa Twin doesn't go *below* 11, there will be no difference in any of these samples. In fact, I doubt my band mates much less the audience would hear even between a J bass or a P bass. All this talk of scopes etc. to me is silly. In the real world its boom, boom, boom.
And actually, I think it was a stroke of genius to have the same bass in the second sample. Not technically a double blind but did add an element of perceptual reality.
And actually, I think it was a stroke of genius to have the same bass in the second sample. Not technically a double blind but did add an element of perceptual reality.
I've had the same experience, there's apparently crossover in the tonal spectrum due to the variablity of wood.
+1000
The point isn't that there's no difference, but only that the difference is subtle. Pretty much anyone can tell the difference between a P-bass and a Stingray, regardless of any other factor. That's because of the pickups and electronics. Determining differences in body woods in otherwise-identical basses based on tone alone is difficult at best.
In my decades of experience, "identical" basses often sound different, and different basses can sound similar.
It's a shame it's with degrees of freedom = 1, but obviously would take someone with a lot of resources to do with multiple instruments of each.
I'm glad it was D Atkinson, so we avoided the whole mess of "does this guy know how to set up an axe." Thanks for this demonstration!
I'm glad it was D Atkinson, so we avoided the whole mess of "does this guy know how to set up an axe." Thanks for this demonstration!
+1
I hear diferences between the two firsts clips in the attack on the first lower notes, ash generally sounds quick to me, and alder a little bit rounder. But is very important the density of the wood, and more factors IMO.
