Canned from the praise band

[JollySpudd]

But not for someone being disabled! lol

Ahh, so you're exposed to the thick of it. -- I probably edited and added a part since you read my comment. I addressed that disabled part as being disconnected from the divorce part. Give a look-see

 

[CGremlin]

So by some of the logic presented in this thread, are you are saying I did a disservice to the Lord by participating?

Absolutely not, but I have known plenty that would. What I was saying is that I don't play well with others looking down on me because the way I live my faith doesn't jive with their ideas of how it should.

As an aside, I'm right there with you on contemporary Christian stuff (i.e. Sandi Patti, old Amy Grant, etc.) I seriously dig gospel though, and I wish Neal Morse would get some more love. His album "One" was awesome in scope and performance.

 

[JollySpudd]

So by some of the logic presented in this thread, are you are saying I did a disservice to the Lord by participating?

I don't thinks so, but you make a good case in point that, despite not wanting to be in ministry music, you were easily dove-tailed in under your family circumstances. -- No question that it can be fulfilling in an I-love-to-play way, and that the appreciation from people and fellow players is endearing. But that's the (dare I say) "trap". Playing music is what we love to do. For a person that is a career minded musician, finding some spirituality and a place where love of music can intersect with the spiritual side, it's all too easy to get diverted, not realizing that music in church is an end in itself - active for spiritual reasons, but somewhat closed ended for musical career ones.

It's like someone offering you cake and ice cream. Who doesn't agree to that? But if your meat and potatoes is music as livelihood - ministry largely doesn't pay, nor does it make room so easily in sharing that commitment with "the bar gig". And you can't live on that, even though it costs you something every hour, day, week, month, year... that you give to the church. Don't let it turn into too many years.

I never gave my 10% creative tithe for money, it was a gift. But when it becomes an expected "needed" duty that you have to wrangle about with to get out of, as life demands, it's no longer a gift, it's being purloined by manipulation.

And when it becomes a tactic of leverage to benefit the church by calling secular/job playing into question "in the eyes of God" - then the professional career musician can be put into a moral quandary.

Playing in church can become a surrogate for what was once a part or full time career goal. Unless you get a minister's license and have a degree in music ministry - which more qualifies you to be employed on staff by a church. If you don't have that, then you are typically typecast as a "volunteer". Do it long enough and it's expected. Forever. Take a stance toward compensation and you are a very selfish, bad, ill-motivated man.

In my book, you're just being a really good and cool dad

 

[JollySpudd]

Plus, to say you know that the BL was only using the disability part as a smokescreen sounds a little like "seeing into the hearts of men," right?

EDIT: That might sound more combative than I mean it to. If so, sorry!

Nah, it's all good - not apologies necessary. It has been pretty disjointed and trickling info from the OP. I've tried hard to follow in connecting the dots. I read his comments separately out of thread context in trying to piece it together. It did seem like he had 2 conversations with the BL, and that the broken hip bit came first, and the fidelity accusation as a part of the reason for canning came second, hence - I saw the former as b.s. fudging about the real issue, and the BL trying to cover his own arse by vilifying the wife. But you could be right, I might be connecting dots that don't. Though that's what I was trying to not do with the devil and the hip connection - the hip bone ain't connected to the devil bone, i don't think. If it is, that's totally wack. \m/ Run away! Run away!

 

[Bmosh]

So ... OK then. quick recap. 20 yr friend fires bass player from a worship team over the phone. Consolation: Maybe I can join a country band. New developments; ex B/L made a pass at wife which doesn't get mentioned til 20 posts later. Christians are good, Christians are bad and somehow, wife broke her hip. Still more upset about getting fired from praise band. Meanwhile, best post I read on TB in quite a while ( JollySpud -115) Also, Satan worship rears it head, good for a dozen posts or so . OP posts comical updates every so often, usually with a major detail that has just come to the surface .

What have I left out ?

Edit: Probably all the things I've had to take out...

 

[stringtapper]

I don't thinks so, but you make a good case in point that, despite not wanting to be in ministry music, you were easily dove-tailed in under your family circumstances. -- No question that it can be fulfilling in an I-love-to-play way, and that the appreciation from people and fellow players is endearing. But that's the (dare I say) "trap". Playing music is what we love to do. For a person that is a career minded musician, finding some spirituality and a place where love of music can intersect with the spiritual side, it's all too easy to get diverted, not realizing that music in church is an end in itself - active for spiritual reasons, but somewhat closed ended for musical career ones.

It's like someone offering you cake and ice cream. Who doesn't agree to that? But if your meat and potatoes is music as livelihood - ministry largely doesn't pay, nor does it make room so easily in sharing that commitment with "the bar gig". And you can't live on that, even though it costs you something every hour, day, week, month, year... that you give to the church. Don't let it turn into too many years.

I never gave my 10% creative tithe for money, it was a gift. But when it becomes an expected "needed" duty that you have to wrangle about with to get out of, as life demands, it's no longer a gift, it's being purloined by manipulation.

And when it becomes a tactic of leverage to benefit the church by calling secular/job playing into question "in the eyes of God" - then the professional career musician can be put into a moral quandary.

Playing in church can become a surrogate for what was once a part or full time career goal. Unless you get a minister's license and have a degree in music ministry - which more qualifies you to be employed on staff by a church. If you don't have that, then you are typically typecast as a "volunteer". Do it long enough and it's expected. Forever. Take a stance toward compensation and you are a very selfish, bad, ill-motivated man.

In my book, you're just being a really good and cool dad

This is actually very interesting to me, and we should probably take it to another thread, but whatever.

I have worked for a couple of different churches over the last few years. One singing tenor as a ringer and another as the sound engineer and now bass player. In the first church there was no question that I was there as a professional. I knew the choirmaster/organist and he's a staunch proponent of musicians getting paid for their work.

The newer church is a bit different and sometimes I wonder about some of the things you've mentioned. I'm employed hourly as the sound guy, that's solid. But at a certain point I had to sit in on bass and the difference between me and their volunteers was enough for them to want me to play full time and I agreed to do it for much less than I would normally ask since I was already getting the pay from the sound engineering side of things.

In the next couple of months I will have some career opportunities open up in my field (music academia) and I won't be able to run sound anymore but I would still like to have the Sunday morning bass gig. But I would have to ask for the same thing they pay the two other non-volunteer members of the praise team.

Anyway, my point being that sometimes it feels awkward to ask for pay, but this is what I do. I've sunk my whole life into various music and audio related skills and put a lot of time and money into it.

 

[GBassNorth]

So ... OK then...
What have I left out ?

Tacos! You left out Tacos. No epic bass thread is complete without the OP going on a journey to find the best Taco.

Oh, and cow bells! The drummer needs more cow bells!

 

[1954bassman]

Mindreader!

Um...... I'm just gonna throw this out there. One thing about the OP's story really stands out to me.

He said (and I'm paraphrasing) "Whatever. At least this will free up some time for me to find a country band."

Many of you are really missing the point of a praise band. It is never about showing up on time. It is not about being the best musician. It isn't even about being a "true pro" (however that is defined in your world).

I will try to put this in a way that doesn't break any rules. If it does, let me know and I will take it down.

Being I'm a praise band is about where your heart is. Do you need to be able to play? Yep. Do you need reliable enough gear? Sure. Do you need to know your part? Well, if course. But none of them even remotely come close to the most important reason you are there.

And if the OP's heart is in such a place that, when "canned" he simply says "Oh well..... onto the next country project." ....Then let me at least float the idea by you all that perhaps a praise band wasn't his thing to begin with.

Full disclosure: I wasn't there. The praise leader could just be an egomaniac douche.

That changes zero about my point though. If you will toss your diety aside to go play honky tonks I don't want you in my praise band leading a congregation. I welcome you to find a seat in the aforementioned congregation and will love you just the same. I will feed you if you are hungry. I will clothe you if need be. I will show you love in every way that you need it.

But you need not be leading anyone in praise. And that's what praise bands do.

Best of luck either way.

 

[two fingers]

I don't think any musician who believes just does that. It's not one way or the other, black and white; but that is how some church people see it. (I posted an obscenely long comment about this further up the thread, I think it was my first comment on this. Maybe give it a read, if you'd be so kind. No worries if not.)

Canned from the praise band | Page 6 | TalkBass.com

I did not get to read your entire post (yet). It seems very thoughtful and contemplative and not judgemental at all. I will try to go through the whole thread later when I have more time and perhaps we can bounce more off of each other later. It is a very interesting discussion to say the least. Thank you for sharing.

 

[bolophonic]

OK. You're right.

Please accept my apologies.

"Troll" accusation withdrawn.


...Was the "friend" wanting to boink Short-scale's wife before or after she broke her hip?

That is ungentlemanly and disrespectful.

 

[Short-scale]

I'm proud to say that instead of worrying about what the BL wanted me to do, which was divorce my wife, I stuck to my decision to stay with her. It's a shame that the band voted me out but I'm still with the one I love so what can be better than that.

 

[Short-scale]

I feel fortunate that I have the support of my wife in my bass playing adventures. Now if I could just talk her into a backup bass for my two basses.

 

[Humbled]

That is ungentlemanly and disrespectful.

You are 100% correct. Please refer to my post #142.

The two are hard to reconcile within the context of this story.

 

[GBassNorth]

I feel fortunate that I have the support of my wife in my bass playing adventures. Now if I could just talk her into a backup bass for my two basses.

Well if you join a country band you'll obviously need a telecaster. After that, join a Rush tribute band and get a Ric, then a Beatles band and a Hofner, then a Who tribute band where you'll need an Alembic, Fenderbird and Buzzard bass. You get the drift?

 

[Bmosh]

I'm proud to say that instead of worrying about what the BL wanted me to do, which was divorce my wife, I stuck to my decision to stay with her. It's a shame that the band voted me out but I'm still with the one I love so what can be better than that.

Another new detail. Right on schedule.
Lotta free time today ?

 

[OEW3]

oy... I've read 90% of this thread. This is my opinion, my experience and years of looking at it all. Some was very good, some ok, some frustrating, and some very dysfunctional to the negative effect of many. As opinion, it's somewhat subjective, however, so much personal and observational experience goes into this that I've tried to take a very objective view of both sides of the musician / ministry topic.

I almost hate to get into this discussion, as it's a personal ouch for me, as well as can be quite contentious, depending on whether you're deeply "on the team" or off.

By degrees, I regret that I was brought deep into the music ministry scene - it was saturating for 25 years - so in that, I know of what I speak. I played the rolls of sound tech, outreach keyboardist, session player, worship pianist, project recording engineer, music director, co-producer, arranger/songwriter, as well as subbing on guitar, bass, drums. I even did teaching and some preaching and missions. — I came in wanting to "tithe" a percentage of my skills, but it ended up backwards where the whole church thing took over 90% of my musical life much to the derailment of my intentions. It too easily became uber-invasive. (I'm not talking about the faith, but about the ministry side of the "business").

As a precursor, I'll say that I met a lot of genuinely great people out in the pews, and some in the ministry side as well, but unfortunately - a lot of people involved in music in church, and those in control over it who aren't musicians - in my (dare I say) professional opinion, many of these typically nice folks do not truly understand the reality of what musicians, and pretty much anyone in the arts, are about. At least in my fairly diverse experience. Of course there are exceptions.

Art is a "thing" to most of non-artists and church laborers, like an object you use - hence, so are musicians - which in many ministry minds, aren't musicians, but are "ministers", "servants". And if you're not "all in" for the ministry, you're a hinderance and are expendable. Why? Often because "I have a vision" (from God, no less).

"What's your ministry, brother?" — But that's the roll and posture one must take when playing in church. It's not about the music, it's supposed to be about God and the Church. If you're in church as a player for the music, you're in the wrong place.

To some in the ministry, that's their whole life, and too often they expect that it should be your whole life, too. In a way, just like musicians, ministry is an all consuming lifestyle. But that's the minister's cross to bear, and not to be so heavily put upon others. Yet, they depend upon having people in place to make their vision happen; that's why it's so crucial to know going in - are you into music, or are you into ministry.

Therein probably lies your disconnect in not being on the same wavelength - (that whole thing with your wife and satan is a deeper paranoia on their part). But thank your own goodness, that you didn't lose your musical and personal identity in the short time you were there. It doesn't take much to start to get lost if you are a clung to commodity - with bass players, it's a little less so. As a pianist, in my time of involvement, I rarely walked in the door of any church that wasn't looking to get their hooks in. Sometimes it was flattering, eventually it made my skin crawl.

Nevertheless, I stray.

The point that I will go to my grave (and probably to hell) with, after so many years in that realm : you can be a musician who believes and shares some of what you do in context of your faith, whether in or out of the church, OR you can be a christian musician - whose sole purpose with music is to use it as a tool, as a delivery system for the gospel - and that is ministry - (and dare I say) it's not a music based thing at all, it's a ministry centered thing.

Can you do both? Sure, but when you do, sometimes this situation of yours happens. That's why this is so polarizing.

At the risk of ruffling feathers - when a musician goes into a church to play, they ideologically cease being a musician and they take on the roll of minister using music as a tool for the Gospel and for praise and worship. Period. (I observed and wrestled over this for more than 25 years actively and for 5+ years since, and not just relative to myself, but regarding my peers as well, so I'm not just flippantly writing with an axe to grind.) But therein lies the controversy in this.

I often ask players to define in themselves what they are about: Are you into being a musician, or are you into being in ministry? Two TOTALLY different realms, careers and lifestyles. They shouldn't exclude one another, but in some church minds, they can't exist simultaneously - you have to choose. I don't agree.

The trouble is, musicians going in, usually after many years of busting arse to get good, often with aims of career or higher education in the arts, and a realization that music is the best language that they speak in expressing their humanity - we go into the church with that mindset and understanding, but those invested on the other side can not see things as we do, many do not try to understand the heart and mind of an artist, (even though some music ministry people started on the arts side).

Suddenly, all around us, music is seen as a "thing" - not a language or genuine expression, it's just a thing that needs to be submitted to the faith (in the eyes of ministers), along with the rest of your life. And like the issue with your wife's health allegedly "holding you back" - I've seen this, too. It illustrates a grand missing the point, in my opinion, of the intrinsic humanity that ALL of this faith thing and our human interaction with it is supposed to be about.

Not all church experiences or flavors are as invasive, it's usually the growing indie charismatic types, but every church I've seen - and I've worked in, around and through a LOT - they all have some sort of territorial-ism when it comes to music (read: MINISTRY). The big fish in the little pond syndrome. Honestly,
I could write a book about this.

The bottom line is - guard your musical life and how you define it, especially if you see it as God given. It's your responsibility.

It is absolutely possible to believe AND be a real musician (not just music as a tool), and if the music you play in your own environment outside of the church has a positive impact on someone ("ministers to them") great. I don't think God cares if you play as a full or part time profession or hobby. I don't thing God cares about style, either. - And it's perfectly ok to do music purely as a thing for ministry, just so long as you don't look at other players as inferior with lesser motives - that's subjective, judgmentally unchristian and absurd.

Music or Ministry - 2 distinct paths and purposes - they shouldn't be mutually exclusive, but to more than a few in the church, one use of music is sacred and the other is profane, but it's more about motive. Is a doctor who cures a sinner less holy than if he cures a saint?

Geeezzz it's music. To quote music ministry guy Keith Green "Music is neither good or bad. It's like a knife, you can either stab someone with it or butter your toast". (There's that ministry "tool" thing, but the "neither good or bad" is the point - it's about motive.) — Seems your getting canned was a bit of a stabbing.

You're lucky you got away with just a scratch. Run. Play music for the love of it. Love God in the midst of, if you choose.

I sat in on a praise set a couple weekends ago, for a very good friend who leads one of the four weekends of the month. I'm not a Christian, but he needed a player, and wanted me to be there with him. It was a great experience. Good people, fun music. Everyone knew that I wasn't a believer, and as far as I know, no one cared. It was very nice to meet people who were just happy to have me there to share their Sunday affirmation, and left me to deal with my own salvation. No one under valued my efforts or dismissed my experience because we didn't share all the same spiritual details. There are many motivations for playing in a church. Who can say who's intentions are suited for the service?
Just wanted to share my experience to balance some of the non-believer hate out there these days. We're not all angry about Jesus. In fact there is much that can be learned from him as an example of a good man, on a purely secular level. Sorry to derail.

Edit:
By non-believer hate, I mean to say when we non-Christians bash on Christians.

 

[Short-scale]

Well if you join a country band you'll obviously need a telecaster. After that, join a Rush tribute band and get a Ric, then a Beatles band and a Hofner, then a Who tribute band where you'll need an Alembic, Fenderbird and Buzzard bass. You get the drift?

Definitely got the drift but then there's the problem of matching a bass to an outfit, with all the colors they come in.
Good thing there's no such thing as too many basses. I feel a GAS attack coming on...

 

[Humbled]

Definitely got the drift but then there's the problem of matching a bass to an outfit, with all the colors they come in.
Good thing there's no such thing as too many basses. I feel a GAS attack coming on...

This Telecaster ought to do...

Do you like Orange Metal-flake?

 

[Short-scale]

This Telecaster ought to do...

Do you like Orange Metal-flake?


View attachment 634445

Sweet!
Can't go wrong with metal flake.
6 strings would confuse me to no end. Lol
I played a 5 string for a couple of years but it's been 4 bangers ever since.
Also been playing short scales exclusively for almost three years and it feels almost like cheating that they are so easy to play, Also they are great basses for jamming on the couch while watching tv.

 

[Munjibunga]

Just found this out.
It would appear that this so called friend of mine made a pass at my wife, which she rejected.
I shouldn't have been fired for something he tried and was rejected for doing so.

In a way he did me a favor by letting me go because I'm going to be in a band whose music is more along the lines of what I like.

My wife was worried I'd be mad at her about what he tried. I'm not upset at her at all but for this dude to try something like that...now thats a lowdown move.

AHA! The other shoe has dropped. That's what we've been waiting for. I'd sure as hell be in your "friend's" face about that. It would become common knowledge at the parrish, too.