Can't get a good deep bass tone

[rp911]

Let me preface ... I am primarily a guitard.

But I'm trying to lay down some demo tracks in my home studio before I can get my real stud bass player to put down the real ones. And when he does, I want him to get the tone I have in mind.

Which is your basic deep, fat, solid tone that you hear everywhere ... the most recent example I've been listening to lately is Joan Osborne's Breakfast in Bed (with Tracy Wormworth on bass, if I'm not mistaken).



I'm recording into a Presonus StudioLive console, into Logic 8 on a Mac.

My own basses are not great -- old Ibanez soundgear 4-string and a newer active Schecter 5-string Stiletto. I have a GB Shuttle 6.0 head and 2X10 cabinet, which I can mike with a Shure Beta 52A. I've tried direct off the Shuttle, with the Beta mixed in, just direct off the Shuttle, I even bought a Reddi direct box and tried that straight into the board, but I can't get the deep fat tone I'm craving. It's the solid low end I want to hear, that the whole band can just sit on top of.

Where does it come from? Sustain? Compression? Preamp settings? Can anyone shed some light? Suggest some settings? Plug-ins for Logic?

My bass player never really gets that tone, either, when we play live (we multitrack record our shows now). He has a variety of Modulus and Lakland and other basses that he plays. His tone is good, but not that resonating fat sound.

 

[Nick Kay]

That sounds a LOT like a modernized Motown type of bass sound. A bit of a holy grail as far as tones go, my friend.

You'll have better luck with flatwounds, but I think you can pull off a similar tone with roundwounds. Track with a P, or a J set for both pickups full-up or just the neck pickup. Roll the tone off a bit, more so if you're using roundwounds.

As for tracking, your best bet is a direct line + a mic off of an Ampeg B15. Since you don't HAVE a B15, though, you might be able to get a reasonable facsimile with the tube preamp on your Shuttle and turning the tweeter off on your cab. Make sure the direct line is pre-EQ and clean as hell, so you can process it as much as you want later down the line. Do you have any mics other than the Beta 52A? It's probably a bit too scoopy for what you're trying to do.

You should be able to hear things coming together as you track. If it doesn't sound almost right in a practice take, it's still not going to sound right after processing. Go back to the bass or amp settings and play around more.

Speaking of processing, this one should be fairly simple. Phase align the mic and the DI track, compress the DI track (I go for an average of 4dB of gain reduction, but you might want a bit more), then EQ. EQ will be a matter of taste, but I would throw both tracks onto a bus, cut the sub-40Hz content out, low-pass somewhere around 3kHz-5kHz, and do a slight low-mids bump wherever the bass drum is scooped out.

In that particular clip, the kick drum is carrying the real sub-bass. If you're going for that kind of mix, you're going to want to cut the lows out of the bass at 80Hz instead of 40Hz.

 

[JustOpenYourMind]

+1

A good passive P-bass or jazz bass with flats should give you the tone you want.

 

[gregmerrill]

Start with your hands and then the bass itself. Where are you plucking the strings near the bridge or the neck? You will get many different tones with that. What is your pick up selection. Back pick up less body and more edge. Front pick up more body less edge ect. The on-going battle of wanting your bass to cut thru the mix and still have a fax sound. It will change from room to room where you play also. Many will play thinking man I got this bass cutting thru the mix but they have no bottom. Others will play thinking wow my bass is nice and fat but out front it sounds like mudd.I consider this the most fustrating thing about playing the bass. Good luck.

 

[speedkills]

... I am primarily a guitard.

REALLY??

Who calls themselves that?!?

 

[kraigo]

I agree that a P-Bass with flats is the way to go. Perhaps an SX P-Bass could come your way? My old Tokai P-Bass with Antiquities II's and Lakland Joe Osborn flats does it effortlessly.

KO

 

[rp911]

Who calls themselves that?!?

I love that phrase. I've known so many of them. Drumbers, too. I play keys and drums, too, not particularly well, but well enough to get by.

Thanks for the advice. It's hard for me to come by preowned basses, since I'm a lefty. But from what I'm gathering, since the 95 Ibanez (which was a $399 bass back then) has Ibanez DXJ and DXP pickups, it will be a better starting point than the active Schecter, which has EMG-HZs on it.

Those are great tips regarding the EQ and compression settings, as well as miking the amp, I'll give it another shot.

 

[mambo4]

Another tidibit about EQing a "fat" bass tone:

I discovered a years ago that if I wanted a good, fat, articulate bass tone -a tone where the notes I was playing really jumped out- that simply cranking the "bass " knob never did the trick.

when I got an amp with a parametric mid EQ, I discovered that by boosting the low mids (somewhere 250-500 hz) I got a nice, warm, fundamental friendly bass tone.

YMMV

 

[megadan]

It seems like some basses just have this, and some don't. All the preamps and EQ in the world will be hard pressed to bring out what isn't there to begin with.

The bass I've found thus far that has it (deep, deep tone) is a G&L L2000. I'm sure there are others.

I realize buying a new bass isn't always an option. Boosting the low mids is a good suggestion. Different preamps may have better fundamental low mids.

 

[kraigo]

It seems like some basses just have this, and some don't. All the preamps and EQ in the world will be hard pressed to bring out what isn't there to begin with.

The bass I've found thus far that has it (deep, deep tone) is a G&L L2000. I'm sure there are others.

I had an L-1000 for about 15 years. I always went back to "single coil with bass boost" (a variation of series wiring) but it caused me no end of trouble hearing myself. Too much low end, not enough low mids. I'm not saying I was blameless, but I had a hard time dialing it in.

Eventually I got a P-Bass and sold the L-1000. I like the P-Bass because it just slots right in.

Again, I want to emphasize that it might have been me, or it might have been my particular L-1000. If I found a good deal on an L-1000 or L-2000 I'd look it over. I love those basses - I've owned five different MIA G&L's. In the end a P-Bass was what I needed.

Good luck.

KO

P.S. Reslot the nut on an inexpensive righty P-Bass. It's not like you'll be spending much time above the 10th fret anyway.

 

[ghigo85]

I know that you have ampli, but did you try with amp simulator?
For example: Amplitube Ampeg SVX (hope the name is correct) or Amplitube Fender.

Maybe it can be usefull sometimes. I know that the quality it's not the same of a real amp (also Line6 products are very good, such as Pod Live), but sometimes they are good for mixing, you can just put a little bit of the amped sound and if you find the right settings you can have a pretty interesting bunch on the low frequencies.

Another thing that you can try it's to use a good preamp instead of mic with amps.
Top quality pre are expensive, but you can try with small Presonus Tube Pre. They are not expensive (here in Italy they are around 120 euros) and they work good.

Try to obtain the most clear sound as possible, then work with a small ammount of plugin.

PS: Sorry for my english, I come from Italy, so my grammar it's not the best!

 

[bobknowsbass]

Buy your bassist a set of flats and have them try it on. The range of a good lakland plus a set of Flats should get you the sound you want. From what I've read, there are many good flatwound strings, the ones I use are laBella 760FL's on my MIM Jazz bass and it sounds great! Everything from low, Dub tones to a Jamerson-like sound.

 

[BiigM]

After reading about the Reddi on this board I would think that it's definately not the input stage that's at fault.

I would look at the bass and the playing technique as others suggested.

 

[JimmyM]

Another tidibit about EQing a "fat" bass tone:

I discovered a years ago that if I wanted a good, fat, articulate bass tone -a tone where the notes I was playing really jumped out- that simply cranking the "bass " knob never did the trick.

when I got an amp with a parametric mid EQ, I discovered that by boosting the low mids (somewhere 250-500 hz) I got a nice, warm, fundamental friendly bass tone.

YMMV

Ya, my M V's just a little...I think it's more in the midbass 125-200 hz zone where the big fatness that warms you up but isn't muddy is. Low mids are great too, but that midbass is where it's at for me.

Anyway, the best thing to do is pop in a graphic EQ or graphic EQ plugin, and start moving faders on it until you find a freq range you're responding to. Don't go overboard with it because a little goes a long way, but you'll find it eventually.

 

[N. Kentucky Bass]

Use the right signal chain.

Bass --> preamp (I use a my ShuttleMAX12 w/ its built-in tube) --> compressor --> HD recorder or software.

The "fatness" comes from compression. I prefer gentle compression at about 2.5 or 3:1. You might like it higher at 4:1 or more. Record the same thing at different compression levels to see what you like best.

 

[Jehos]

REALLY??

Who calls themselves that?!?

Guitards, duh.

 

[anonymous101511]

Flatwounds are a waste of time. That's appropriate for getting a low- sustain, lo- fi punchy tone, not a big bottom- end sound.
Try CUTTING in the 200- 250Hz range. That will help give you a bigger bottom. Boosting low end is rarely the way to achieve that. Same with a kick drum; want it to sound bigger? CUT 250 Hz.
BTW, go direct, forget miking a bass amp, that usually enhances the evil 250Hz range, instead of highlighting a big bottom end sound.

 

[Nick Kay]

Use the right signal chain.

Bass --> preamp (I use a my ShuttleMAX12 w/ its built-in tube) --> compressor --> HD recorder or software.

The "fatness" comes from compression. I prefer gentle compression at about 2.5 or 3:1. You might like it higher at 4:1 or more. Record the same thing at different compression levels to see what you like best.

+12 million. I don't think I emphasized the compression enough in my first post. It's an extremely important component to that smooth, buttery tone.

Also, I missed a little point. 4dB average gain reduction is plenty, if you're bussing the bass with the kick drum later and comping/limiting them some more, or going through a pushed preamp. If you're not comping them together and the signal's coming in dead clean, though, you're going to want something a little more gnarly. 6dB GR minimum, maybe up to 8dB GR.

Flatwounds are a waste of time. That's appropriate for getting a low- sustain, lo- fi punchy tone, not a big bottom- end sound.
Try CUTTING in the 200- 250Hz range. That will help give you a bigger bottom. Boosting low end is rarely the way to achieve that. Same with a kick drum; want it to sound bigger? CUT 250 Hz.
BTW, go direct, forget miking a bass amp, that usually enhances the evil 250Hz range, instead of highlighting a big bottom end sound.

Man, I don't know where your experience with flats came from, but it doesn't match mine at all. With a good setup, the muted attack on flats needs less compression to get a nice, smooth sustain. Furthermore, I don't think high-end clarity is particularly important to the tone in the OP clip. There's a couple of videos on youtube of a guy with a flat-strapped 'Ray that would beg to differ on the lo-fi argument, though.

It seems to me that you just have an agenda against 250Hz. What did it ever do to you!?

 

[groooooove]

Ya, my M V's just a little...I think it's more in the midbass 125-200 hz zone where the big fatness that warms you up but isn't muddy is. Low mids are great too, but that midbass is where it's at for me.

Anyway, the best thing to do is pop in a graphic EQ or graphic EQ plugin, and start moving faders on it until you find a freq range you're responding to. Don't go overboard with it because a little goes a long way, but you'll find it eventually.

he couldent be more spot on. anything from a little under 100 to close to 200 is going to be the area you want to tread in, depending on what you want to hear. be sure not to bump up anything TOO much when eqing, +10000 to a little goes a long way

 

[anonymous101511]

+12 million. I don't think I emphasized the compression enough in my first post. It's an extremely important component to that smooth, buttery tone.

Also, I missed a little point. 4dB average gain reduction is plenty, if you're bussing the bass with the kick drum later and comping/limiting them some more, or going through a pushed preamp. If you're not comping them together and the signal's coming in dead clean, though, you're going to want something a little more gnarly. 6dB GR minimum, maybe up to 8dB GR.



Man, I don't know where your experience with flats came from, but it doesn't match mine at all. With a good setup, the muted attack on flats needs less compression to get a nice, smooth sustain. Furthermore, I don't think high-end clarity is particularly important to the tone in the OP clip. There's a couple of videos on youtube of a guy with a flat-strapped 'Ray that would beg to differ on the lo-fi argument, though.

It seems to me that you just have an agenda against 250Hz. What did it ever do to you!?

Yes, 200-250 is the evil frequency! ;-)
Muted attack of the flatwound would need MORE compression, since it is biased toward a heavy attack and NO sustain.
I'm trying to help this guy out. You obviously already have the sound you want.
Too much signal processing takes the magic out of the players hands and gives it to the engineer. Your choice;
I'm a musician and an engineer, so I have an objective perspective.