• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join freeLog in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Can't stay on beat

Bad time is 100% a problem of not being able to listening very well. If your listening skills aren't developed enough to play with steady meter a metronome will be of limited value. All it will do is confirm your time sucks...it won't magically make grow you huge ears. Later as your playing and hearing develops the metronome may be more useful. Right now only use it to check your progress, don't use it to try to force good meter on yourself.

I somewhat disagree with the advise not to tap your foot. Tapping your foot isn't the same external distraction the metronome can be and it may support your internalization of the meter. It certainly does for me and a lot of other musicians.
 
Orchestras also don't have a drummer playing 16th notes to lock into. They have a conductor waving his magic wand AND they have to read the sheet music too. Kinda hard to WATCH the beat and READ the music at the same time. Tapping the foot makes sense in this situation...plus they are in junior high school.

I also don't frequent junior high orchestra concerts, so looking next time is gonna be a problem. You don't drive one of those creepy vans do you? Kidding...kidding.

But you put your lectern in a way you can follow the conductor without to move a lot your eyes also you have played the music more than twice when you play infront of people.

You have to feel the beat, counting in your head also help.

You won't see an orchestra tap their feet or any classical musican do that, they learn their beat from a metronome, they hear it.

So you don,t need a drummer to have good time. In fact in most pop music the drummer is just a big metronome.

I think the first thing to do put your metronome at 60 bpm. and say out loud the rythm in time with the metronome. Quite easy to do.

Once you can do that, take your bass, one note and do the same thing but play at the same time.
 
Teach the metronome to play with you if it's easier that way. Really. What kind of music are you playing? If it's waltzes we'd better start over from the beginning. If it's 4/4 stuff, think of "boom chuck." The booms are on one and three. The chucks are twos and fours. The booms happen when your foot hits the floor. The chucks happen when your foot comes up.
 
JimmyM said:
Adults are talking...listen...

:D

I thought it was really good advice, except I'd ditch the metronome. Puts too much pressure on you to not make a mistake, and you need to allow yourself to make mistakes while you work it out. Plus a metronome doesn't give you good time...that has to come from you.

Lol. Wow. I got munched on this one.....

Ok so no metronome and don't tap your foot. Don't put pressure on yourself, internalize the rhythm. Think about rainbows.





Seriously. The idea of tapping your foot and always using a metronome IS to help you internalize the beat. To get you to the point where it is so ingrained that you become the metronome. Start slow and keep at it, you'll get there. Also whenever you are listening to music its a practice opportunity, try and feel the pulse, clap along... (this may look funny in public places).
 
Adults are talking...listen...

:D

I thought it was really good advice, except I'd ditch the metronome. Puts too much pressure on you to not make a mistake, and you need to allow yourself to make mistakes while you work it out. Plus a metronome doesn't give you good time...that has to come from you.



I agree 100%. No harm in occasionally using a metronome to check your accuracy but not while you are learning a song.
 
I agree 100%. No harm in occasionally using a metronome to check your accuracy but not while you are learning a song.

Yes but at the beginning you seriously can benefit from dedicated practice. Try listening to fast transitions between 1/8ths and 1/8th triplets at 150 bpm in 4/4, then play it accurately and evenly. A noob has no hope. I found the trick is to slow down, count, get the two patterns down, then slowly play them, back and forth, until you can build to the tempo you seek with accuracy. One should actually be able to play slightly more rapidly for good measure :D but that's not important at the very start.

Better to play a variety of music well at half the normal tempo... than messy and inaccurate at twice the bpm. YMMV.
 
Here's the thing timing issues are either a lack of technique to play efficiently or the lack of internalisation skills of what is needed to count in time.

Telling someone how to count or giving them tips on how to count are pointless, they already know how to count. What they cannot understand, and therefore do, is the rhythm of counting. This is an internalisation skill that is done by training for those that lack the cognitive skills to do it, those that have it naturally do not need to train it, but better understand how to use it.

This has nothing to do with music, music is one of the applications we can use it for. From Golfers to athletes, to actors to secretary's , from reading a book to your work place, it all uses rhythm......or in its other form timing.

For this a metronome is needed ( or drum machine, or rhythm box ), but not a bass. Since the bass is the physical side,we need to work out where the fault is.
If after working with the metronome everything seems good, the we can move to the act of playing, without the metronome I may add.
If we find the problem here, then we have identified it is in the technique and therefore nothing to do with counting, so we can address the problem in specific ways.
If it was a case that the technique was fine, and we looked to the internalisation side and found the problem there, then again, we can address it in the same specific way. The first thing to do is identify the source of the problem, then address it....... it will either be a mental one or a physical one.
In the work place the syncing of such ideas is time and motion, and ideas like playing music to workers on an assembly line keeps them all in sync, they will tend to all work in sync to the music being played, rather than each owns individual body clock working against each other.
Also noted is, if the temp is faster then the output will raise as the workers will naturally work faster.

I always start with the mental side, look to that, then look to the physical with
anyone that presents timing problems to me, then make them aware of where the problem is. By understanding it they they lose the fear and anxiety of it and it develops into being second nature, which is all part of internalization.
The use of a metronome, drum machine, or rhythm machine is used to check and ingrain tempos and rhythm by listening to them first, count and understand what you are going to apply to it. When you have it, turn of the machine and play it. If need be repeat this. When you have it, play it once to the machine to check it.....do not keep playing over and over to the machine.
Those that do not have problems are free to play over and over to a machine because their focus is not the machine. This is the problem with trying to learn and work with a machine is that it becomes the focus, not the music, not the technique, but the machine. This can cause other problems that are nothing to do with playing to arise.

Now there may be a genetic link to a timing problem.
Speaking fluent is something we all can do, but those who stutter cannot.
They cannot time certain words so they lose the rhythm of their speech.

It may be a emotional response, look how many people cannot do public speaking. They are fine in everyday life, but give them a mike and as them to make a speech.....the results are sometimes all the things we see in players caused by anxiety.

These are just a few of the mental side thing that may or not be present, just as the physical side may have other things present such as a weakness brought on by injury or illness, maybe even a genetic condition get in the way.

The simplistic way to sort timing issues is to understand and learn the timing of what you are playing. So many people learn lyrics, chords, melodies etc, but just accept timing as what they hear over all. I have lost count of how many times I have been told its verse chorus, verse chorus, middle 8, solo, etc, and when I ask "how many bars" to any one of those elements they cannot tell me straight of......because they have never really thought of it. If you cannot tell me how many bars there are in the solo, then you do not understand the timing of the song. As I have said timing, tempo, and rhythm, is motion...it moves, so you have to understand the parameters of that movement.
If you hesitate, because of the mental or the physical side, then you will get out of time with the motion.
Music does not wait for you it flows own and it is your duty to understand and look after your own tempo and timing.........a drummer does not set the tempo or a timing, he just represents it, and he can represent it wrong.
Everyone in the band is responsible for tempo and timing, it does not belong to any one person.
 
:confused:

Got a wart? Cover it with a bandage and feel good. :rollno:
I don't even know what this means. If you're saying not practicing with a metronome is covering a wart with a bandage, that would be wrong. If you can't keep time without a metronome, having one isn't going to make it any better. At some point, you have to turn the metronome off and keep time yourself.
 
Here's the thing timing issues are either a lack of technique to play efficiently or the lack of internalisation skills of what is needed to count in time.

Telling someone how to count or giving them tips on how to count are pointless, they already know how to count. What they cannot understand, and therefore do, is the rhythm of counting. This is an internalisation skill that is done by training for those that lack the cognitive skills to do it, those that have it naturally do not need to train it, but better understand how to use it.

This has nothing to do with music, music is one of the applications we can use it for. From Golfers to athletes, to actors to secretary's , from reading a book to your work place, it all uses rhythm......or in its other form timing.

For this a metronome is needed ( or drum machine, or rhythm box ), but not a bass. Since the bass is the physical side,we need to work out where the fault is.
If after working with the metronome everything seems good, the we can move to the act of playing, without the metronome I may add.
If we find the problem here, then we have identified it is in the technique and therefore nothing to do with counting, so we can address the problem in specific ways.
If it was a case that the technique was fine, and we looked to the internalisation side and found the problem there, then again, we can address it in the same specific way. The first thing to do is identify the source of the problem, then address it....... it will either be a mental one or a physical one.
In the work place the syncing of such ideas is time and motion, and ideas like playing music to workers on an assembly line keeps them all in sync, they will tend to all work in sync to the music being played, rather than each owns individual body clock working against each other.
Also noted is, if the temp is faster then the output will raise as the workers will naturally work faster.

I always start with the mental side, look to that, then look to the physical with
anyone that presents timing problems to me, then make them aware of where the problem is. By understanding it they they lose the fear and anxiety of it and it develops into being second nature, which is all part of internalization.
The use of a metronome, drum machine, or rhythm machine is used to check and ingrain tempos and rhythm by listening to them first, count and understand what you are going to apply to it. When you have it, turn of the machine and play it. If need be repeat this. When you have it, play it once to the machine to check it.....do not keep playing over and over to the machine.
Those that do not have problems are free to play over and over to a machine because their focus is not the machine. This is the problem with trying to learn and work with a machine is that it becomes the focus, not the music, not the technique, but the machine. This can cause other problems that are nothing to do with playing to arise.

Now there may be a genetic link to a timing problem.
Speaking fluent is something we all can do, but those who stutter cannot.
They cannot time certain words so they lose the rhythm of their speech.

It may be a emotional response, look how many people cannot do public speaking. They are fine in everyday life, but give them a mike and as them to make a speech.....the results are sometimes all the things we see in players caused by anxiety.

These are just a few of the mental side thing that may or not be present, just as the physical side may have other things present such as a weakness brought on by injury or illness, maybe even a genetic condition get in the way.

The simplistic way to sort timing issues is to understand and learn the timing of what you are playing. So many people learn lyrics, chords, melodies etc, but just accept timing as what they hear over all. I have lost count of how many times I have been told its verse chorus, verse chorus, middle 8, solo, etc, and when I ask "how many bars" to any one of those elements they cannot tell me straight of......because they have never really thought of it. If you cannot tell me how many bars there are in the solo, then you do not understand the timing of the song. As I have said timing, tempo, and rhythm, is motion...it moves, so you have to understand the parameters of that movement.
If you hesitate, because of the mental or the physical side, then you will get out of time with the motion.
Music does not wait for you it flows own and it is your duty to understand and look after your own tempo and timing.........a drummer does not set the tempo or a timing, he just represents it, and he can represent it wrong.
Everyone in the band is responsible for tempo and timing, it does not belong to any one person.

You are way better than me to explain what I had in my mind.
 
some are deviating from the op, he is asking a way to help him tap his food while playing with a met. Of course you don't need to tap your foot, you can do it if you want but either way is not right or wrong.
However, being able to tap your foot while playing whenever you want should not be difficult, which is why it should be worked on (not priority). To some people it comes naturally but to some it doesn't.
 
You are way better than me to explain what I had in my mind.

This is profound, but for where you are at right now, I'd suggest playing along with music as much as possible, instead of playing with a metronome. I assume your goal is to play music, with others, rather than to tap your foot. Playing along with ipod, youtube, vinyl, MP3, 8-track, whatever, is probably your best way out of this situation. The foot tap is a good thing for coordinating your muscles to play in time, but frankly, I think it's a whole lot more important for wind players in that school band, who have to coordinate a couple-hundred muscles to breathe, shape their mouths/tongues, hold their instruments and do the hand manipulations. Bass playing is not quite as taxing! Play along with bands you dig, relax, but pay huge attention to what the bass player and drummer are doing. You'll be fine.
 
I don't even know what this means. If you're saying not practicing with a metronome is covering a wart with a bandage, that would be wrong. If you can't keep time without a metronome, having one isn't going to make it any better. At some point, you have to turn the metronome off and keep time yourself.

FAIL! Playing bass with a metronome is probably the best practicing method a beginner can do. Forget scales and theory for now. Practice timing until the cows come home. HAVING A METRONOME WILL MAKE IT BETTER. Also, I have read many quotes from pro guitar and bass players who swear by either tapping their feet or moving to the rhythm in some way. Yes, any established player should be able to keep ryhthm without tapping their feet, but it adds an extra dimension of dexterity. Tapping your foot while playing isn't easy at first but it will help you become a better player.
 
FAIL! Playing bass with a metronome is probably the best practicing method a beginner can do. Forget scales and theory for now. Practice timing until the cows come home. HAVING A METRONOME WILL MAKE IT BETTER. Also, I have read many quotes from pro guitar and bass players who swear by either tapping their feet or moving to the rhythm in some way. Yes, any established player should be able to keep ryhthm without tapping their feet, but it adds an extra dimension of dexterity. Tapping your foot while playing isn't easy at first but it will help you become a better player.
And your qualifications for calling my post FAIL are...

???

Anyone can keep time, and they don't need a metronome for it. I see lots of people dancing perfectly in time when I play. How hard can keeping time be if dancers can do it?

Now tell me how a metronome can improve your sense of time, please.
 
And your qualifications for calling my post FAIL are...

???

Anyone can keep time, and they don't need a metronome for it. I see lots of people dancing perfectly in time when I play. How hard can keeping time be if dancers can do it?

Now tell me how a metronome can improve your sense of time, please.

Metronome is a good device for time regularity, and a great device for internalizing time differentials (fast/slow/whatever). Playing along with tracks you dig will be just about as good for your sense of time, and way, way better for developing your sense of song structure, dynamics, appropriate parts, and just about everything else, including, most importantly, your sense of GROOVE!

Ditto. Foottap is only one way to calibrate or regularize time - don't let the means become the end!
 
Yes but at the beginning you seriously can benefit from dedicated practice. Try listening to fast transitions between 1/8ths and 1/8th triplets at 150 bpm in 4/4, then play it accurately and evenly. A noob has no hope. I found the trick is to slow down, count, get the two patterns down, then slowly play them, back and forth, until you can build to the tempo you seek with accuracy. One should actually be able to play slightly more rapidly for good measure :D but that's not important at the very start.

Better to play a variety of music well at half the normal tempo... than messy and inaccurate at twice the bpm. YMMV.



I think we are talking apples and oranges here. Using a metronome to practice specific beats at differing tempos is fine, I do not believe it is the best practice while actually learning a song. Internal time should be the goal, if a little practice with a metronome helps then fine but eventually you do not have it or a click track to play to and you have to groove without it.
 
Junior high school bands tap their foot... LOOK next time to hear a concert. Professional orchestras, performing the most difficult Stravinski, don't tap their feet.

Professional orchestras don't need to tap their feet for tempo reference. They have a special person just for that purpose. They call him a conductor.

edit: I dont mean for this reply sound snarky. I only mentioned it because the term 'orchestra' was used. I recall having heard chamber musicians play classical music (not Stravinski) without a conductor, and no, they didnt tap thier feet. Not surprisingly, I felt their tempo was a bit "off".
 
Plus a metronome doesn't give you good time...that has to come from you.

Worst advice ever. The only reason my time is good is BECAUSE of the work I've done with the metronome. You have to work with it in some very specific ways, it's not just turn it on and flail away. But it DOES work.
 

Latest posts