Carol Kaye Threads (meerged)

[moley]

gbp1 - What other material is there to read? Can you give us some links, or something? Is there anyone else who has done the thorough research that Slutsky has?

And, for that matter - does Motown backup Kaye's claims in anyway at all? What's good for the goose is good for the gander. In fact, as I understand it, it's the producers, arrangers, and songwriters that were working for Motown back in the 60s that confirm Jamerson as the bassist on those tracks.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally posted by girlbassplayer1
There are more articles to read other then Allan Slutsky's book or Movie...are you aware that neither one is sanctioned by Motown......its not liscensed by them....why is that????

Who cares - I haven't read any of it - but as I keep saying, you only need to listen to the bass lines in question - all the documentary evidence is irrelevant, to my ears!

 

[cassanova]

Originally posted by Richard Lindsey


That's a good point. I'm one of the "older cats" (47 tomorrow).. I wish it weren't so.

Happy birthday Rich. I like the way ya tried to hide that little comment and make people think it was about your opinion of Carol and not turnin 47 though

Seriously, Happy Birthday. Keep on

Originally posted by moley
And, for that matter - does Motown backup Kaye's claims in anyway at all? What's good for the goose is good for the gander. In fact, as I understand it, it's the producers, arrangers, and songwriters that were working for Motown back in the 60s that confirm Jamerson as the bassist on those tracks.

Good question rodent, Its along the lines of something I was thinking. I think alot of the motown artists that Jamerson recorded for are still alive. Has anybody thought to go to the artists and ask them who laid down the bass on the tracks then. I dont mean the Funk Bros. Im talking about The Temptations, 4 Tops, etc. I dont think theyd lie about who did what.

 

[Treena Foster]

Invalid Link Removed is a good place to start!

Cass, most vocal tracks were laid after the music so the artist wouldn't know who the session players are.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally posted by girlbassplayer1
Invalid Link Removed is a good place to start!

It's a nice article, and it was cool learning more about Steiner, with whom I wasn't terribly familiar.

But it provides absolutely no supporting evidence for Kaye's claims to those tracks. Absolutely none. What it indicates is that (1) Steiner worked with some Motown acts and (2) Steiner worked with Kaye. Neither of which, I remind you for the umpteenth time, was ever in issue! The question--and I can't believe I have to keep telling you this--is not whether Kaye worked for Motown. It's whether she played on those couple dozen disputed recordings. This article, interesting as it is, says absolutely nothing about that.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally posted by girlbassplayer1
[BCass, most vocal tracks were laid after the music so the artist wouldn't know who the session players are. [/B]

Two problems with that:

1. Even if the artists didn't know (which was by no means always the case--Smokey Robinson was not only an artist but also a songwriter and a producer), the producers, engineers, and arrangers still would certainly know who was on the seesion, as would the other musicians. I've seen no evidence that any of them support Kaye over Jamerson on these tracks, and plenty of evidence to indicate the opposite.

2. If the artist is playing with the musicians, like Stevie Wonder on IWMTLH, he or she would damn well know who was in the room. If Stevie says that track was Jamerson, as Slutsky reports, then I believe Stevie. You might *believe* Kaye was there; we *know* Stevie was there--you can hear his voice at the beginning of the track!

 

[satie]

Motown Support for Jamerson's Position:

1-Berry Gordy (Foreword for book SITSOM)

2-Jobete (Motown Publishing) Use of sheet music in SITSOM Book and recordings in SITSOM CD

3-Access to MOTOWN Studios (SITSOM movie)

4-MOTOWN (Released soundtrack album 2 grammys)

5-Jobete Allows all Motown recordings to be used as "needle drops" in SITSOM film

6-Berry Gordy Short example from his private collection of film taken inside the studio

7-Motown Allow isolated tracks from the original master to use in SITSOM and instigated release of old recording with the bass solo'd

8-access to Motown Vaults where the masters are stored
------------------------------------------------
Motown support for the Kayester?

ZIP ZERO NADA
------------------------------------------------
BL


EDIT - I suspect one of Carols supporters will try the "poison post" method of closing this thread down to spare the queen bee more negative information regarding these Motown claims. I have seen it happen before.. Watch Out!

 

[cassanova]

Originally posted by Richard Lindsey


Two problems with that:

1. The producers, engineers, and arrangers would certainly know, as would the other musicians. I've seen no evidence that any of them support Kaye over Jamerson on these tracks, and plenty to indicate the opposite.

2. If the artist is playing with the musicians, like Stevie Wonder on IWMTLH, he or she would damn well know who was in the room. If Stevie says that track was Jamerson, as Slutsky reports, then I believe Stevie. You might *believe* Kaye was there; we *know* Stevie was there--you can hear his voice at the beginning of the track!

Thats exactly what I was tryin to get at Rich. Especially the 2nd point you made. Im gonna believe Stevie or the other musicians/singers who were there.


GBP1, Im asking that you ease up on posting in this thread until you can come up with definitive proof stating that Carol was indeed the bassist on the recordings in question. No offense but you keep slinging the same things to try and prove your point. (her abilities, documents that prove she worked for motown, etc, but nothing to legitimatly support the claim that she did record them.

In turn the other members are starting to post the same type of rebuttles sayin how none of what your saying is proof. (ex:The question--and I can't believe I have to keep telling you this--is not whether Kaye worked for Motown. It's whether she played on those couple dozen disputed recordings)and providing verified references to support there beliefs.

This debate is going absolutly nowhere now, it just keeps rehashing it self.

Thanks for your cooperation.

 

[Treena Foster]

This is wrong to keep me from posting...just plain wrong

Next in the lesson of respect is how to treat those who are in attendance of the conversation. When a disagreement occurs, one does not have the right to use childish or immature means to the end of changing a person's opinion. Furthermore, if persuasion be a motive for conversation, the disagreement can indeed be quite beneficial. Opposing viewpoints are the only way that we, as a society, are able to pick the best course of action (though in my personal opinion, we do not normally pick the best). That said, most of the members of this board are quite respectful and adhere to such guidelines as set in the illustrious Forum Rules.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Just for clarification, the contention is that Carol Kaye played in a style pretty much indistinguishable from Jamerson? Just trying to figure out where some folks are coming from.

For me, Babbitt is still the closest I've heard. Did Carol happen to do any Jamerson-esque stuff anywhere else besides the Motown "hits" in question? Just curious. If so I'd love to hear some examples. If not, anyone have an explanation?

If I could play like Jamerson I'd keep doing it, regardless of where I worked

 

[Craig Garfinkel]

Originally posted by Richard Lindsey


Personally, I appreciate and value her playing and her considerable contributions to the instrument we all love, both in recording and in education. I *don't* appreciate her taking credit for what the overwhelming evidence says was Jamerson's work. One doesn't change or excuse the other! I don't know her as a person, but that's not relevant. As for "bashing", consider that she probably would never have had a negative thing said about her here if she hadn't claimed work that seems not to be hers. Seems to me what's getting bashed here is Jamerson's legacy.

Ditto, Richard, as I was about to post almost these very words in response to Jaquo's post. I dig what you're saying J, but I think this argument is all about respect. It is not an oversimplification to say that Jamerson was the Motown sound. The evidence, IMO, is indisputable that it was in fact Jamerson playing many of the tracks Carol claims to have done, as have been inumerated. Jamerson's accomplishments in no way detract from Carol's stature as one of the premier first-call bassists of the 60s and 70s. Her abilities and true credits are not being disputed here. Her credibility is. Every time this issue seems to die out, it's seemingly either Carol herself or one of her supporters that dredges it up again.

I'm a firm believer in "no harm, no foul", which seemingly some are arguing here, but in this case there is a harm to Jamerson and his legacy.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Originally posted by girlbassplayer1
This is wrong to keep me from posting...just plain wrong

He didn't say you couldn't post... he politely asked you to provide definitive proof to the contrary of all of the other definitive proof that's already been cited ad nauseum here. He's asking you to put up, which shouldn't be that big a deal, you must be referring to something. Otherwise this is a circular argument with proof only coming from one side and what amounts to empty rhetoric from the other.

The only reason that would keep you from posting is if you don't want to provide it*. That could've been provided in your last post, instead you take this tactic. Why?




*or don't have it.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Originally posted by girlbassplayer1
This is wrong to keep me from posting...just plain wrong

Next in the lesson of respect is how to treat those who are in attendance of the conversation. When a disagreement occurs, one does not have the right to use childish or immature means to the end of changing a person's opinion. Furthermore, if persuasion be a motive for conversation, the disagreement can indeed be quite beneficial. Opposing viewpoints are the only way that we, as a society, are able to pick the best course of action (though in my personal opinion, we do not normally pick the best). That said, most of the members of this board are quite respectful and adhere to such guidelines as set in the illustrious Forum Rules.

First in the lesson of respect might be not coveting thy neighbor's bass work

This still doesn't provide what people are politely asking you for. Puffery and then righteous indignation aren't usually a sign of a strong case.

I'm not trying to change anyone's opinion. Educate me... and maybe you can change mine.

 

[satie]

If you think it is bad here try posting a view on CK's message board that she doesnt agree with!!!

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally posted by girlbassplayer1
Furthermore, if persuasion be a motive for conversation, the disagreement can indeed be quite beneficial. Opposing viewpoints are the only way that we, as a society, are able to pick the best course of action....

I tend to agree that there's nothing wrong with arguing and holding contrary positions - but I can also see the point that this is just going round in circles, trotting out the same sets of evidence or points of view, each time.

All that was being said was "let's not go round again!"

I think Brad's argument is the most convincing logically-speaking - if Carol could play and create basslines like that, then why has she never done anything else with that feel/style - but I still maintain that as bass players we should be able to tell the difference, by using our ears.

 

[da_witch]

Let us all be friendly here and start reading stuff about the subjects....
http://www.bassland.net/marcp.html

http://www.bassland.net/jamerson.html#drlicks

"But the bugaboos still dog him. Last month, veteran LA bassist Carol Kaye filed a defamation lawsuit against Slutsky and Lee for material printed on Lee's Web site. For years she has claimed to have played on hits long attributed to Jamerson, including "Reach Out I'll Be There," "Baby Love" and "Dancing In the Street."

Slutsky gathered evidence to refute her, including affidavits from those present at the disputed sessions. Lee printed Slutsky's counterclaim, spurring Kaye to file the lawsuit. A Detroit libel lawyer who has read the complaint calls it groundless.

Kaye's lawyers wouldn't comment. But others will, and claims to those bass lines often evoke chuckles.

"Where's the common sense in it?" says Riser. "There are too many people still around who know the truth.""
Taken from: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

You have probably all read this, but hey, if not you all will be queit and read for a while instead of being not nice!

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally posted by da_witch
Let us all be friendly here and start reading stuff about the subjects....

Why!!?? You just need to listen to the tracks - I have no intention of reading any of this!

 

[da_witch]

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield


Why!!?? You just need to listen to the tracks - I have no intention of reading any of this!

Bruce darling, you don't have to read this, but I thought I would put some info down!
I don't know nothing about this Carol girl, but what I do know is that this turns into something bad. I just thought I would lighten things up a bit..

 

[cassanova]

Originally posted by girlbassplayer1
This is wrong to keep me from posting...just plain wrong

Next in the lesson of respect is how to treat those who are in attendance of the conversation. When a disagreement occurs, one does not have the right to use childish or immature means to the end of changing a person's opinion. Furthermore, if persuasion be a motive for conversation, the disagreement can indeed be quite beneficial. Opposing viewpoints are the only way that we, as a society, are able to pick the best course of action (though in my personal opinion, we do not normally pick the best). That said, most of the members of this board are quite respectful and adhere to such guidelines as set in the illustrious Forum Rules.

Ok, I know I posted all the rules for you in a seperate thread. I also know that you understood them because you commented on them. shadows of motown thread

I am now invoking rule #5 because this is twice now in the same day broke it.

I was polite and very tactful on each occasion. Not once did I say you couldnt post. (Thanks for taking my back on that Brad.) If you question me or any other mod again in an open forum (which is a bannable offense) I will go stright to Paul and
suggest he ban you.

You have not once validated your case with any factual information that she has played on the tracks in question. Which is usually what people need to sway there opinion. Other moderators have closed down threads for much less. Many times they are closed because the moderator feels the thread has simply run its course and has little to offer any more. I believe that this thread has run its course and has little if any information that can be gained from it.

If you feel my actions were unjust and unfair, please feel free to email or pm Paul.