DiabolusInMusic
Functionless Art is Merely Tolerated Vandalism
Oh, and for those who think Carvin isn't "pro" gear, I present to you one "pro" band that loved Carvin:
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One thing I feel compelled to add about build quality: I bought a Dingwall Afterburner in 2004. I noticed that there were V shaped marks on the back of the neck, probably caused by some kind of woodworking tool. Also, one of the knobs kept slipping on its shaft (Sheldon sent me replacements). Before I got the Dingwall I had purchased a Carvin BB75. I wound up returning it because I didn't bond with the tone but the build quality left nothing to be desired. Not slagging Dingwalls, they're great, just pointing out my experience.
Back when the exchange rate was better, we weren't charged harmonized sales tax, and the shipping cost was less, Carvin's were a good value. These days, not so much. Although, I did just order some Carvins strings that were on sale for $10 a set. That made it worth it!
So what's the difference between the B25 and the B25S? I wonder what warrants a couple hundred bucks difference?
Eh? I've heard things about a couple decades ago. But, I'm not even sure how true that really is, because I often see people rocking and loving their old LBs with koa wings and whatnot. Even putting up with the old Wilkinson bridges, because the rest of the bass is so good. Or even bothering to replace the bridge, because the rest of the bass...
Anyway, they've had what seems to be a pretty strict drying process. and they will sell you a six string with a mahogany neck. So, there is some internal confidence, there.
And now, they've been using support rods in all of their necks, for a couple of years. And they recently upgraded the rods (from the same supplier) to a product which is 40% stronger.
I see complaints all the time about how they are doing their marketing, by showing off crazy finishes and super figured woods. Reality is, you don't have to get all that stuff, with most models. Choosing body woods and colors is great. But, my favorite things which keep Kiesel always on my mind, are the functional options.
fret size
I don't have to get the maple board to get X color (I don't like maple boards)
I can choose to have a gloss neck. A lot of brands are shipping basses with satin or oiled necks. I don't like that.
If I order another Kiesel, It will have Luminlays.
they are other functional things, too. such as thinner or thicker neck options.
Of course they are. What's the base price for each of those? Probably starting at about $3,000, for a basic model from Sadowsky or Lull. Fodera is probably more. Comparisons like these don't make sense. and then, if you were to trick out a Sadowsky or Lull with a bunch of exotic and/or figured woods, you'd be well beyond that bass price. To a range you can't even really get to with Kiesel, unless you have Jeff Kiesel build it himself. (Which he does offer. Kiesel edition).
I hate to regurgitate marketing language. But, Carvin/Kiesel have been making pickups for decades. they offer more guitar pickups, than some brands dedicated to only that. Their pickups work great and are made as well or better than most. and they keep improving.
Their pre-amps don't seem to impart any special magic. But, they are dead quiet and have an output adjustment. and you can configure them a number of ways. (independant volumes or blend, passive tone, mid controls, coil taps, passive switch. They are also competitively priced.
that said, you can send them whatever pikckups or pre-amps you want, as long as they will fit their routing.
I'm sure there are behind the scenes increases, which we aren't privy to. Materials costs, component costs, etc. Yes, they are ordering more wood and pushing fancier wood. But they have also added functional things like EVO gold frets, luminlays. They have new pickups. They moved to newer, more accurate CNC. they have a larger bulding. More staff. And yes, more wood types.
They've had some QC issues the past couple of years. Recently, there was some non-trivial outcry about it, in a couple of places. I think it has been heard. Things like staff increases and little changes to process, do not seem to be a coincidence.
I know about this stuff, because Jeff Kiesel live streams at least once per week and has been pretty transparent about much of it. I won't be suprised (and hope) that in 2017, we will be hearing about less QC issues or straight mistakes on specs.
I suppose you can look at that a couple of ways. To me, that means that $3,000 Kiesel only differs in that it has more layers of wood and more expensive, figured wood.
The bass model has the same hardware, pickups, same support rods in the neck, same measurements, same exact feel. That's a win, in my book.
Two years ago, my build with Carvin (now Kiesel) was not free of hiccups. Multiple, in fact. None of them were permanent quality issues. In the end, I gained some freebies and with the hiccups sorted, have a bass which represents about as good as anything they put out.
I'll tell you, QC issues aside and supposed this or that's about quality: I tried a used Lull at Bass Northwest and was immediately reminded of my Icon, in terms of how the neck felt and overall feel to play the thing. That fairly standard Lull, used, was nearly double the new price of my Carvin Icon. Which, at $1500, had about $450 extra in wood, component, and finish choices. Again, that's a win, to me.[/quote][/quote]
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The 'S' is a basic model and does not offer options like a Piezo pickup and things like that. In order to get a Piezo, you must get the regular B25 which adds costs for things you may not want, then you pay extra for the Piezo. Other than that, same exact specs, electronics, etc...
The S model does not use a hipshot A bridge. However, some people like that bridge better than the hipshot A. I haven't used the other bridge, but I can say that the hipshot A could definitely be improved.
The S model also does not allow you to configure figured top woods and multi-piece bodies.
As far as I know, they do not currently offer piezo on anything. They got rid of the option.
The S model also does not allow you to configure figured top woods and multi-piece bodies.
As far as I know, they do not currently offer piezo on anything. They got rid of the option.
I have had a few Carvin basses, they are very underrated. I loved every Carvin I ever played and wish I had them back. I own a German Warwick Thumb and a German Warwick Corvette Std now, and they are great instruments. They are heavy, which isn't a big deal to me, as I am 6 feet tall and 220lbs . I've played Chinese Warwicks and there is no comparison to German. All being said, I would find a used German Corvette, in your situation . My Corvette is awesome, I don't understand why the resale is so low on them, but that's my gain!
If cosmetics are the main objective in purchasing a bass, then Kiesels are certainly a great way to satisfy that urge to get something fancy-looking. Personally, I am more into the way a bass plays, sounds and feels than how it looks, so tripling the price of the bass for the same tone is not something that holds any interest for me. I'd rather have a great bass with top-notch electronics or my choice (or 2-3 boring looking basses that sound different from each other) than one fancy one. I guess at the root of it, for me anyway, is that the Carvin basses are/were such great instruments that they don't need all that glitz and glitter to stand out. It just distracts and hikes prices, IMHO.
Others obviously feel differently and it would certainly be silly to begrudge anyone their difference in tastes. More power to those who are into that. ]
It's been a while since I ordered anything from Carvin and I didn't even know they had stopped providing that. Too bad. It was a great option, especially for fretless.
I think we are on the same page. If we had a $900 JB4 basss and a $2,000 JB4 bass in front of us: they would feel and play exactly the same. They are made on the same machines and by the same people, with the same amount of time and attention. they use the same components/hardware/pickups. they both have support rods in the neck.
Not all of the options are wood choice or purely cosmetic/finish options. That 2,000 bass could be chambered, have a 5 piece neck, more expensive fret material, luminaly side dots, luminlay inlays, a pre-amp, etc. But it will feel and play the same. That's a win, that's how it should be.
and with so many options to choose from, you can balance function with cosmetics, as much as you want. They even have free solid paint options.
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With many other manufacturers, there is a tangible difference between their lower and higher priced models. Using a car analogy, they offer a Toyota and Lexus and you get what you pay for with the price difference. One could certainly add spoilers, ground effects, undercarriage neon lighting and sparkly paint to their Toyota and have a great, dependable, solid comfortable car, but it is still going to be the same as the one parked next to them at half the price. But a Lexus will always have much more to offer and be 'worth' the extra scratch. So I guess the 'value add' is not there for me with the Kiesel stuff...
FWIW, I drive a 5 year old Subaru which probably explains a lot....
Ah my gosh!!!! Freeking ROTFLMAO!!! Bro, Id put any one of the Carvin basses I own against anything else out there. Sheesh. Lol...
You aren't going to change my mind - and I'm not trying to change yours. Whomever started this post asked for my honest opinion and that's exactly what I gave them.
Isn't it more that Kiesel offers you the Lexus and then you can throw in more money to get the extra bling? Whereas other manufacturers have either an inferior sub-brand or offer bare-bones models often at inflated prices.
I think the only thing that changes in Kiesel manufacturing process is custom finishes. I own two Kiesel guitars at the moment and am really happy with their quality. They are not perfect (both have issues they have fixed since then) but sound and feel great. As instruments I could not be any happier with them.
I am eagerly waiting for Kiesel to release the multiscale Icon 5. Hopefully near next NAMM. I just hope they would also offer it with a narrower string spacing than 19mm.
Carvin/Kiesel makes great high quality gear. I have owned several of their instruments and they were all of great quality, feel, and tone. The company is evolving and changing a litttle too much for me. With not enough consistency, every 10 years it's almost like a new company. With that being said they have not updated their mixers and mics with gear that is better than the latest Behringer products
While they are most definitely solid basses, IMHO, I wouldn't consider anything from Carvin/Kiesel a Lexus level bass. Regardless of how much bling is added. Lexus is about far more than cosmetics. I have a couple of Lexus level basses that were built one at a time with custom wound pickups in one case top notch 3rd party electronics in the other, roasted or ancient wood, chambering and all that stuff that cost less money than some of those 'Kiesel' editions. My B25 shares time with them as it is my fretless. I have had no issues with any of my Carvins and consider them great basses for what I paid new (~$1100). They're tough to beat at that price, not so tough at double it. IME...
