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Cello tuned in fourths

#21
temmrich said:
Percy Heath did it.
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Percy Heath, Oscar Pettiford, Ray Brown, Sam Jones… I believe that one of them (Ray?) had a Kay Cello (signature) model. There are some compelling reasons to just try to play it in 5ths. But if you have a chance to give it a shot you’re definitely not hurting anyone.

Dave Holland became an accomplished cellist (in 5ths), and an excellent bassist that I know here in Detroit took up the cello 10 or so years ago and has become quite good. He tuned his upright in 5ths for a while but has since come back to reason… 😂
 
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#23
dreamadream99 said:
Are you a bass player who also plays cello?

Cellos are tuned in fifths, like a violin or viola. Fifths require position changes on a cello, because it is larger.

My question is this: as an accomplished bass player, do you think cello would be easier to play if it were tuned like a bass? In fourths (EADG)
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i'm an orchestra teacher, and have dealt with this idea and every variant of it over the years.

i think defining your goal is important. if you really want to play cello, i don't suggest you do anything other than learn cello - preferably with a good teacher to guide you. it's such a well designed instrument, and obviously has an incredible sound.

if you're a bass player who wants to play cello-ish things, i think tuning a smaller double bass A D G C is a very cool idea. Bozo paradzik does this and plays full sonatas for cello from brahms and beethoven, masterfully.

if you are looking for something new, like the idea of the cello (tenor range, size, etc) you may want to consider the viola da gamba. it's a different sound for sure, but a really beautiful one. having frets and being tuned in 4ths (with a third) makes it more closely related to the bass, or the lute/guitar.

I am a competent cellist, professional bass player, and now well on my way to competent/professional gamba player. Each path serves a reasonable purpose.

I find it very interesting the history of each instrument and how they were conceived, developed, and refined over a long period of time. The cello is tuned in 5ths because that is what works best, even if your first instrument was tuned in 4ths. Adjusting to the new tuning is really no big deal and definitely worth it, i think.
 
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#25
I'm an orchestra teacher. I can tell you that strings for the 4th tuning on the cello are available (D'Addario makes them), but no cellist plays this. If your goal is to play like Ray Brown did on his cello solo recordings, you can use the 4th tuning, but as previously stated, the 5th tuning is the traditional way. If you don't have an interest in really spending time learning the cello, then you might go with the 4ths, but if you actually want to learn the cello, then use the traditional 5ths tuning.
 
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#26
Ik depends i guess what the musical goal is. People like Pettiford played exactly the same musical language like hé did on the big bass (hé took it up originally because he had broken his arm and it was easier to play cello with an arm in a sling). If you want play cello because you are attracties to specific Music associated with the cello (classical tradition, bowing etc) i would be playing in 5ths. Much more rewarding when i tried this myself years ago. That said, Pettiford sounds incredible on cello
 
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#28
fishdreams said:
Ik depends i guess what the musical goal is. People like Pettiford played exactly the same musical language like hé did on the big bass (hé took it up originally because he had broken his arm and it was easier to play cello with an arm in a sling). If you want play cello because you are attracties to specific Music associated with the cello (classical tradition, bowing etc) i would be playing in 5ths. Much more rewarding when i tried this myself years ago. That said, Pettiford sounds incredible on cello
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I think both Pettiford and Brown played cello in 4ths tuning, but not positive.
 
#29
Never played cello, but I did once learn some of the Bach cello suites on bass tuned in 4ths. Then one day for fun I tried tuning a bass in 5ths...

Of course I couldn't play much bass tuned in 5ths because it was just to weird, but... the cello suites suddenly fell under the fingers. Even for someone who had never played an instrument tuned in 5ths, music written specifically for cello suddenly made sense! But playing bass tuned in 5ths made no sense, and I didn't pursue it beyond a few days of experimenting.

Composers who understand cello and write for cello, write stuff that can be played on a cello, in standard cello tuning. Playing music on the instrument it was written for (Assuming the composer knew what they're doing), is unsurprising the easiest option!
 
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#31
I think cellist actually tend to shift position a lot less than bassists. Most of the time you will be playing in the "second position", with your first finger a whole step from the nut and "one finger per fret" after it. And you play open strings or extend that position forward or backwards whenever you need a note not covered by that position instead of shifting the position. On the C string, your firs finger is the D, second D#, fourth F; for the C# you extend your index backwards, for F# you extend your pinky forward and for G you play the next string open.

At least it is that way during the first part of the learning proces if you follow any formal method, when you start getting into more advanced material, shifting positions becomes more of a thing, but expect your first year or two to revolve around building your muscle memory for that second positionand it's extentions. If you teach yourself based on your previous experience as a bass player, you'd probably could benefit from a tuning in 4ths.

Bear in mind that material written for cello will present certain unintnded challenges and that finding a suitable set of strings for that tuning would be a PITA and probably quite expensive.


Spectre Gunner said:
What about the bow of the neck? Alternate tuning may also change the tension placed on the neck. On an electric bass you will likely need to adjust the truss rod when changing to alternate tunings. Is this an issue on a Cello? Does a Cello even have a truss rod? Is it obvious I don't play the Cello?
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Cellos don't have truss rods (at least not traditionally) what they have is a short maple neck with a very thick ebony fingerboard that basically doesn't bow at all. And the relatively high action makes neck relief unnecesary.
 
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#32
dreamadream99 said:
Because I’m thinking about trying out the cello, and the logic of the position shifting escapes me. I understand why violins and viola are tuned in fifths. They can play a whole tetrachord in one position – no shifting. But the cello is much larger. It seems to be the bridge instrument between the fifth tuned Viola, and the fourth tuned bass. So I’m curious why it wasn’t originally tuned in fourths to allow single position scale work. It almost seems like they imposed the violin tuning upon the cello at the expense of the player. Oh sure, they got used to it. That’s how they learned it, so of course it seems natural to them, but it seems like it makes for a lot of unnecessary position shifting.
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I know many double bassists who tune in fifths to match the other stringed instruments. As I understand it, some classical pieces / runs are "easier" when tuned in fifths. I am not a double bassist, but I recall reading about this and know at least two players who tune this way.
 
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#36
I play cello.

It was my main instrument, from 4th grade through high school. Meanwhile, I picked up an electric bass to play in the school jazz band. Then I switched to upright and set the cello aside for many years.

During the pandemic, I needed a project to make up for the lack of playing out, and decided to see if I could learn to play straight-ahead jazz on the cello.

When I was a kid, I went back and forth between 4ths and 5ths tuning, with no effort at all, even sight-reading. But I still had my youthful brain.

I've had my own thoughts about this. I had an idea about the cello serving as a "mini bass" when I didn't want to haul the upright around, but wanted to play acoustically (e.g., old time fiddle jams). I think EADG tuning would suck the life out of it, and bowing would be awful. The higher register, and the bow, are what make the cello speak. Getting back into 5ths tuning has been en effort, but the main obstacle has been reading. When I'm just improvising or playing by ear, no problem. I've realized that there's no such thing as a "mini bass," except for the electric bass. I've taken my cello to fiddle jams, and it fits in quite well but it's not an upright bass.

My advice is to embrace the cello for what it is. It's a great instrument.
 
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#40
fdeck said:
My advice is to embrace the cello for what it is. It's a great instrument.
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Agreed. After playing the Bach solo suites for years on the electric bass in 4ths relearning them in 5ths on a borrowed cello was a revelation. It was so much more comfortable and natural feeling. It wasn't enough to make me get a cello of my own but if I ever do it will stay tuned in 5ths.
 
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