Certainbass "Svelte Bass" Kickstarter

[cdef]

David, I have read your Kickstarter page and have these questions right now, which are unclear to me:

You say you've built two Svelte Basses for your own use. They're "all you play now", and you're "very pleased looking at them". Are you referring to the prototypes in the photos? If not, do you have pictures?

Why is CNC a major point for a very limited batch? With the wood, a template and a band saw it seems to me you or your employees could easily do 20 body blanks in a day's work.

What party is going to make the necks with the graphite reinforcements? You say you will be outsourcing to save time.

 

[Dradder]

I guess my definition of "class act" is a bit different than yours.

Apparently so.

 

[DavidCertain]

Excellent playing,my man. You certainly have the funk in your fingers. Nice tone too.

 

[M.R. Ogle]

Well, I'm definitely gonna go see David this spring or summer when the kids get out of school. I'm 58, love basses, have my little guitar shop (Backstage Guitar Lab) and I'm pretty sure we'd have a LOT to chat about!

I really don't drink, either.
Maybe on New Years.

Where is Mount Vernon: Start at the arch, drive east 45 miles on I64.
Watch out for deer! Really.

 

[robd]

don't like the Svelte? Just send me your $10 or more and I will gladly send you a heartfelt, written thank you, signed by me, and honorable mention on my Facebook page.

 

[DavidCertain]

cdef, this initial run is twenty, but we will be doing many more. If we were doing just this 20 or 30, the CNC may not be worth it. The kickstarter will get us into the future not just the present. Sales will replenish the funds our backers provide and be used as working capital, well, you said you read the thing, so I didn't need to repeat that, or did I? My outsourcing. You want me to tell you that. Sorry, they're already plenty busy and don't need anymore work, plus it's just plain nobody's business. Hint: everything for the Svelte is USA made down to every screw unless you opt for the Schaller bridge.

 

[DavidCertain]

At this point, I have just one general reply that takes care of 99% of questions: READ THE KICKSTARTER. And one more thing: read the kickstarter. But there are three more things to remember: 1). Read the kickstarter, 3) read the kickstarter and I forgot 2) read the kickstarter. Unless the subject is how to send money, this will be my final post. Thank you all so much! And for the two cats who posted some of their playing, that was great, both of you are killing! It's more about the music than it is about the instrument, thanks for sharing the true fruits of your labors. Everyone knows where to find me or how to figure how to, it just won't be here.

 

[BTL]

Hi Guys and Gals, I’m the designer of the Svelte bass. I am very grateful for TalkBass, and I am honored that our new bass is the subject of such a dynamic thread, thank you. All of you gave up some valuable input for which I am appreciative and made adjustments to our kickstarter campaign. [...]

BeeTL, you need to read the kickstarter, and your questions would be answered. [...]

BeeTL the tuners including the adapters are explained above. They are bass tuners. [...]

In Summary: in all CertainBass TalkBass threads the common denominator is the detractors have never touched one of my basses, and the ones who have purchased basses from me love them and me. Here’s the fact: If you haven’t even touched one of my basses, my opinion is that your opinions about my basses are worthless to me or anyone else. Nothing personal, just my opinion. So much innuendo with no evidence; most of the detractors didn’t even read the project because they wouldn’t be asking the questions they’re asking and making incorrect assertions had they done so. I’m going to leave here now. Thank you very much for this thread. I am very grateful for TalkBass and this thread. Peace.

David,

Since you addressed me directly, I'll respond in kind.

First, I hope you don't consider me a "detractor", and any questions or input I had about your design choices or intentions were answered in subsequent posts.

As a builder myself, I wish you nothing but success.

If you haven't already contacted Best Guitars Parts about doing your OEM work, I highly recommend them, especially considering the volume you are projecting.

Another good OEM resource is Precision Guitar.

I've been considering using Kickstarter for a small project of mine, so I'm interested to see how well yours goes.

Best of luck!

Brad Lowe
Lowe Custom Guitars

 

[scourgeofgod]

Hey Scourge, I neglected to cover this in my remarks, and I do have some explaining to do. First:

pro·to·type
ˈprōdəˌtīp/
noun

1. 1.
   a first, typical or preliminary model of something, especially a machine, from which other forms are developed or copied.
   "the firm is testing a prototype of the weapon"

On the Svelte project it's about design. The headless one is very experimental. I modeled it out of salvaged 2x4's. That does not mean I'm offering basses made out of 2x4's. The prototypes aren't intended to sport my lutherie. They're intended to document the design. They're hack jobs. The importance is that they are "working prototypes" meaning they're playable. You guessed right, they have no finishes. The real basses will be made with one piece bodies of fancy woods and have finishes. Have you ever seen a purpleheart body? I'm doing that with a purpleheart neck and a padouk fingerboard. Flame maple. Not pine 2x4's. But by the way, it struck me that those 2x4's are 100 year old white pine. You can guys can debate the controls until you're blue in the face, if you haven't tried it, you cannot predict what it's going to be like. You can see the woods I'm going to use in the project description. On the headstock, I'm going to surprise everyone. Those necks weren't Fender, they're worse, but rest assured if I'm lopping of headstocks, I'm going to start out with pieces of crap necks until I have what I want, then all we have to do is copy that in excellent material. That's the plan Stan. T

I know what a prototype is man, believe it or not I get what you're doing here and I have no problem with it. I've already said I kinda like the design, I'm interested to see where you end up.

 

[StayLow]

Why not pony up your own money to make a proper proto and THEN ask for kickstarter funds to make 30 more?

That seems to be a better scenario, no? Drop a few grand into making it proper and then use the kickstarter to scale it to a business model.

I can't speak for Mr. Certain, but I can say with certainty that most pro musicians, even national names, don't have "a few grand". That's why few pros frequent gear forums, which are primarily about showing off gear bought on credit extended thanks to a "real" job while committing time theft against one's employer by "talking" bass online - most pros can't afford the gear or the time since they're not sitting at a computer for "work".

Much respect to Bass Viking for posting up a video, and to Joe Nerve for his video and usual cool humble vibe, however it's very hard to argue with Certain when he states...

Here's the PM in question from David Certain. [...]
well, i know you guys buy a lot of basses, [...]. the average TalkBass pos(t)er and "supporting member" will have extensive lists of gear, but i never see anyone notable they've played with. [...] i asked them to post some audio, video or just a bio, and nothing.

I can't defend the rest of his post or the name-calling, while at the same time I can grasp why he's miffed. At least the posts he's made in this thread are very civil.

 

[Bass Viking]

I love Talkbass. The mods here post things that would have the mods ban me on another forum I belong to . Been banned there, by a guy who's also a Talkbass member . We have better rules here though than they have there.

Was that other forum by chance the Gear Page? I once started a thread they didn't like. It got deleted and I got an infraction. That same situation wouldn't have happened on TB. Worst case scenario would be the thread getting locked.

 

[loveandbass]

I can't speak for Mr. Certain, but I can say with certainty that most pro musicians, even national names, don't have "a few grand". That's why few pros frequent gear forums, which are primarily about showing off gear bought on credit extended thanks to a "real" job while committing time theft against one's employer by "talking" bass online - most pros can't afford the gear or the time since they're not sitting at a computer for "work".

Lots of conjecture and ranting here to make a clear point; unless your point is that anyone who only plays music for a living is living below the poverty line which is probably true in a lot of cases. What i meant was that if i had a business venture i wanted to flesh out i would try to present a more refined product. Even a high quality render would have benefitted this idea in a huge way. Lots of people buy basses and gear without playing them and if you present something in the way they were here you are doing a disservice to the concept itself. It sounds like Certain has made some great basses in the past but very few businesses get off the ground with the promise of "trust me".

I also think its unrealistic to think a working musician couldnt cobble together a couple grand if the devotion to such a future project is really that important. But i do agree that there are tons of gearwhores out there. I would also venture to guess that 75% of people on here dont use music as their sole source of income. Doesnt make any difference really.

Make something great and tell people you want to get it in their hands too...then things start to come together.

 

[wvbass]

I can't speak for Mr. Certain, but I can say with certainty that most pro musicians, even national names, don't have "a few grand". That's why few pros frequent gear forums, which are primarily about showing off gear bought on credit extended thanks to a "real" job while committing time theft against one's employer by "talking" bass online - most pros can't afford the gear or the time since they're not sitting at a computer for "work".

Whether or not TB'ers have disposable income has nothing to do with anything, and I'm not sure why you feel the need to attack the members here.

The Svelte prototype is a very rough draft. If he wants funding, his interests would be better served by building a final, production-ready prototype. This doesn't have to take a ton of money. Take a look at this thread over in the Luthier's Corner:

http://www.talkbass.com/threads/100-bass-challenge-black-p.1128835/

There are a host of threads like this; there is a $100 bass-build challenge going on right now, and it is a safe bet that the finished products here will be more presentable than the Svelte prototype. It doesn't have to take thousands to build a decent prototype.

The Svelte is something like 0.1% of its way to its Kickstarter goal with the average contribution being $7, so I would say that so far, potential investors agree with me. I just think he would have a better chance at being successful here if he had taken his prototype a little more seriously. I don't think he has a design that would even be hugely popular, but it isn't too bad either. It seems like he is setting himself up to fail. Hopefully, I will be proven wrong.

 

[Camdiggity]

I took delivery of my Certain Bass (a stunning jazz with one piece ash body, sunset orange with tortoise shell pg, rosewood fingerboard w block inlays and white binding on a flame maple graphite reinforced neck, bartolinis and glockenklang pre) across the pond here in Sydney Australia just three weeks ago man and I couldn't be happier with my new favourite bass and I have nothing but respect for David and his work. The negativity on this page blows my freaking mind lol Does this make me biased? Damned right I'm biased. I'm biased for the exact reason the naysayers are wrong- because the man and his team do high quality work that his customers adore. No one here is perfect and empathise, if you will for a moment, with what it would feel like to having not only the balls to give your life to your deepest passion but to do so in a VERY difficult industry, pay your dues and then some over a forty year period, then take the calculated risk of outlaying your savings to start up building basses for a living between gigs, making it all work, making a great job even better over the years and then, one day, happen accross this thread to see people openly disrespect that life's work and attempt to damage that good name. Now, if you think anyone would be nice to you in those circumstances, you are projecting some curious sociopathy of your own creation, my fellow bass lovers. Internet chat rooms. Few people even listen in face to face conversation, they're usually just formulating their next response based on a fixed opinion of their own and all the while insisting on their right to be heard. So quick with the opinions and very short on facts.

All that bollocks about David being unreasonable- BAHAHAHA!!! Ooooh buddy, really??? If you have a complaint, reach out to the guy for crying out loud. I threw two big curveballs David's way during our dealings and he was so cool to me about it both times when he would have been well within his rights to give me a big "***, Guy?" He just rolled with it was totally focussed on doing not just a good quality job, but the RIGHT job for his customer. That's what we both wanted and funny enough that's what happened Y'know? Whereas, if you would rather skulk away in your bedroom talking poopie about a good character on Internet chat rooms instead of sorting it out with him at the time? Then you're getting exactly what you want, what you deserve and if you're done already, why don't you take some cues from Mr Certain and grow some balls, live your passion, give it to the world and otherwise leave those who do, the shag alone. Have a nice day!

 

[DavidCertain]

Well, dang, Camdiggity, just tell us how you feel!

I said I wasn't going to chime back in, but I'm starting to agree with those saying the stuff needs to be slick, not "rough draft" like someone so eloquently put it. They're liked hacked up renderings, BUT they do play and play very nicely, and that is the official body shape. It took a lot just to get to that, decisions, decisions. Kickstarter likes a working prototype, so that's the minimum requirement. I'm going to change my mind on how we're doing things, thanks to some of the suggestions here, and I need also to put some more pen to paper and cost some things out. If I don't get at least one backer to pop for a bass within the next few days, I think I'll yank it and head back to the bench and conjure up exactly what I'm offering in the rewards so people won't have to use their imaginations so much since there is obviously a shortage of that. I really don't care if anyone doesn't like the design, I have mine, plus I've never had an unsold or unsale-able bass, anyway. Might be a first but I doubt it. If people like my normal fare, they're going to love these. That's why I want to make as many as I can. I can't thank you all enough, even the negativity was helpful. I'll just take what I want and leave the rest. And remember, we'll bend over backwards for you here at CertainBass, but we will not be bent over forwards! Peace

 

[wvbass]

Well, dang, Camdiggity, just tell us how you feel!

I said I wasn't going to chime back in, but I'm starting to agree with those saying the stuff needs to be slick, not "rough draft" like someone so eloquently put it. They're liked hacked up renderings, BUT they do play and play very nicely, and that is the official body shape. It took a lot just to get to that, decisions, decisions. Kickstarter likes a working prototype, so that's the minimum requirement. I'm going to change my mind on how we're doing things, thanks to some of the suggestions here, and I need also to put some more pen to paper and cost some things out. If I don't get at least one backer to pop for a bass within the next few days, I think I'll yank it and head back to the bench and conjure up exactly what I'm offering in the rewards so people won't have to use their imaginations so much since there is obviously a shortage of that. I really don't care if anyone doesn't like the design, I have mine, plus I've never had an unsold or unsale-able bass, anyway. Might be a first but I doubt it. If people like my normal fare, they're going to love these. That's why I want to make as many as I can. I can't thank you all enough, even the negativity was helpful. I'll just take what I want and leave the rest. And remember, we'll bend over backwards for you here at CertainBass, but we will not be bent over forwards! Peace

Well played, sir. This sounds like a solid plan. I don't think it is so much a "shortage of imagination," though, as it is that the "proof is in the pudding."

 

[BTL]

David,

I think that is an excellent approach, and one that will put you on a more certain (pun intended) path to success.

If you're interested, check out the Luthier's corner here at TalkBass.

There is some REALLY incredible work being done.

Also, www.reranch.com/reranch has some fantastic builders and finishers.

Doug Kauer (dougk), Mark Moore (marksound), and Lou Moritz (SG Lou) to name a few.

If I can be of any help, let me know.

Brad.

 

[MultiScaleMale]

David - I think that's a good plan. Also, look around and see if there are any video people at the local community college or something that may want to shoot your video for you. The youngin's can do a killer job with a low end dSLR these days. If not, at least add some lighting and make sure you shoot the video landscape instead of portrait. At the very least, you've got some good, and some extra critical feedback. People want to see what the end product will be like, not imagine. No guarantee of success, but I think you're off to a good start.

 

[Dradder]

look around and see if there are any video people at the local community college or something that may want to shoot your video for you.

Plus, as a professional musician, you can swap them a custom music track for one of their own projects, that they wouldn't be able to afford otherwise. That way, everybody gets something out of the deal.

 

[Matt Dean]

Like the concept of where the controls are laid out... BUT, I hate the shape.