Chambered Body, What's The Upside?

[JIO]

Not scientific - but the result was/is an awesome sounding bass. (lighter too!)

black & blond P makeover (etc)

 

[Whippet]

chambering vs hollow body. I think that is what the OP is wondering

Removing wood for weight relief and chambering for tone are two different things with two different goals.
The Sadowsky picture is weight relief. The Fodera is chambering.

So chambering is like semi hollow body?

And removing weight is just....... removing weight, and that's usually what takes place in most electric bass?

 

[Will_White]

chambering vs hollow body. I think that is what the OP is wondering


So chambering is like semi hollow body?

And removing weight is just....... removing weight, and that's usually what takes place in most electric bass?

That really depends on the type of chambering, the constellation, honeycomb, and channel chambering like JIO's, warmoth's, and sadowsky's are essentially solidbodies they use the same principles as IKEA floating shelves to keep the stiffness up and weight down. The basses with a central beam and the body wings hollowed out are still essentially solid bodies for the most part but they can have some very slight semi hollow characteristics, and if an F-hole is included can help the acoustic volume of the instrument. The only time chambering really effects the tone is if it cuts into the central portion of the body but at that point it's more of a semi-hollow bass then a chambered bass.

 

[Whippet]

That really depends on the type of chambering, the constellation, honeycomb, and channel chambering like JIO's, warmoth's, and sadowsky's are essentially solidbodies they use the same principles as IKEA floating shelves to keep the stiffness up and weight down. The basses with a central beam and the body wings hollowed out are still essentially solid bodies for the most part but they can have some very slight semi hollow characteristics, and if an F-hole is included can help the acoustic volume of the instrument. The only time chambering really effects the tone is if it cuts into the central portion of the body but at that point it's more of a semi-hollow bass then a chambered bass.

Thank you for the information. I've always wondered about people talking about a semi-hollow bass and how that is different from a chambered bass. Now I am starting to wonder if the wing wood has anything to do with the tonal character if chambering has so little effect!! I am sorry, I don't want to jack the thread but seriously, after reading posts about wood, it seems like a fact that the central beam is the only part that really affects tone. Yamaha, Fodera, Wood and Tronics, Paul Lariat and countless other take this approach of the tonal central block.

One question, if pianists open up the grand piano for more acoustic volume. Why not just put a big gaping hole instead of the F hole? Purely for looks? Is that F hole supposed to hold down the boomy low notes? I'd think that by now someone would have scientifically proven the exact shape and place of the hole.

 

[Will_White]

Thank you for the information. I've always wondered about people talking about a semi-hollow bass and how that is different from a chambered bass. Now I am starting to wonder if the wing wood has anything to do with the tonal character if chambering has so little effect!! I am sorry, I don't want to jack the thread but seriously, after reading posts about wood, it seems like a fact that the central beam is the only part that really affects tone. Yamaha, Fodera, Wood and Tronics, Paul Lariat and countless other take this approach of the tonal central block.

One question, if pianists open up the grand piano for more acoustic volume. Why not just put a big gaping hole instead of the F hole? Purely for looks? Is that F hole supposed to hold down the boomy low notes? I'd think that by now someone would have scientifically proven the exact shape and place of the hole.

Unless the Wing wood is significantly stiffer then the neck wood (neck through being basically the only time a bass would have a different central beam compared to body wings) which is almost never the case, the wing wood doesn't really matter for tone (if you believe that wood effects tone at all.)

As for F-holes, on chambered instruments like a Thin line Tele it's basically just aesthetics I doubt anyone actually experimented with size and placement to get the best acoustic sound. But on acoustic instruments, arch top instruments especially, the F-holes serves a couple of purposes. In a way they do "help hold down the boomy low notes" but more generally what they do is help tune the resonance of the instrument much like a ported speaker, but unintuitively a larger sound hole actually decreases bass response and a smaller sound hole increases bass response. A bit off topic but something else that F-holes do is weaken the otherwise very stiff top of archtop instruments allowing more movement, more air moving, and thus higher volume.

As for the shape it was refined long ago for violins and other "classical" instruments to give the most volume, I'm not sure if it was similarly researched for its application on guitars but I would assume that there was atleast some experimentation with size and dimensions.

 

[Gianni "Orlandez" Orlati]

Here is what a Sadowsky chambered body looks like...

Yes and using the router to carve those slots increases the price of the instrument from Metro to NYC by almost 2k dollars ... does this make sense?
For me not much ... two cases 1) Metros are underpriced (what's the purpose?) 2) NYC are largely overpriced and Sadowsky found a weak justification which he also (stupidly in this case) disclosed ....
Some other ideas?

 

[Whippet]

Unless the Wing wood is significantly stiffer then the neck wood (neck through being basically the only time a bass would have a different central beam compared to body wings) which is almost never the case, the wing wood doesn't really matter for tone (if you believe that wood effects tone at all.)

As for F-holes, on chambered instruments like a Thin line Tele it's basically just aesthetics I doubt anyone actually experimented with size and placement to get the best acoustic sound. But on acoustic instruments, arch top instruments especially, the F-holes serves a couple of purposes. In a way they do "help hold down the boomy low notes" but more generally what they do is help tune the resonance of the instrument much like a ported speaker, but unintuitively a larger sound hole actually decreases bass response and a smaller sound hole increases bass response. A bit off topic but something else that F-holes do is weaken the otherwise very stiff top of archtop instruments allowing more movement, more air moving, and thus higher volume.

As for the shape it was refined long ago for violins and other "classical" instruments to give the most volume, I'm not sure if it was similarly researched for its application on guitars but I would assume that there was atleast some experimentation with size and dimensions.

Thank you for clearing up the issue. Your explanation makes a lot of sense and I am starting to wonder about a lot of issues that get discussed about chambers and wood. After owning so many high end instruments, I am not even sure if there the dime thickness gap between the neck and pocket has any substantial effect on the tone of one of my cheap guitars. People can say it's cheap so it has no effect. But it makes me think, does all this even matter to the overall tone, especially when the instrument is never played in a perfectly controlled environment. I'd think the playing environment has more acoustic impact than the rig itself.

I know that little things MAY add up, starting from the cable and power chords you use, but ultimately it seems like none of these things add up to a hill of beans to make so much of a difference, even on high end stuff. Especially when even the chambers don't have any substantial effect other than weight reduction. I tried out the Sadowsky NYC along side my Metro RV, and it didn't warrant the price difference to me. People's mileage may differ but it made me think about what is most important in building a bass guitar.

Anyway thanks for the information. More food for thought before I purchase my next bass!

 

[Gianni "Orlandez" Orlati]

Thank you for clearing up the issue. Your explanation makes a lot of sense and I am starting to wonder about a lot of issues that get discussed about chambers and wood. After owning so many high end instruments, I am not even sure if there the dime thickness gap between the neck and pocket has any substantial effect on the tone of one of my cheap guitars. People can say it's cheap so it has no effect. But it makes me think, does all this even matter to the overall tone, especially when the instrument is never played in a perfectly controlled environment. I'd think the playing environment has more acoustic impact than the rig itself.

I know that little things MAY add up, starting from the cable and power chords you use, but ultimately it seems like none of these things add up to a hill of beans to make so much of a difference, even on high end stuff. Especially when even the chambers don't have any substantial effect other than weight reduction. I tried out the Sadowsky NYC along side my Metro RV, and it didn't warrant the price difference to me. People's mileage may differ but it made me think about what is most important in building a bass guitar.

Anyway thanks for the information. More food for thought before I purchase my next bass!

In fact ... see my previous post ...

 

[Gianni "Orlandez" Orlati]

Pete Skjold is doing a Catacomnb option that has a unique chambering to the body. It enhances the 3D quality to the notes without sacrifing any of the fundamentals that are often lost with hollow bodies / chambered basses.

3D quality of the notes? ...

 

[Gianni "Orlandez" Orlati]

I've got a heavy bass.
13.6 lbs of weighty walnut to be exact.
I've thought about boring some shallow holes of different sizes in the back to take some weight off.
But I'm not really sure about the percentage of wood/weight removal to make a difference.
There's only so much surface area on the back.
(Of course noone should bore holes in the neck through stringers)
View attachment 1021171

Pity to touch it ... it's very beautiful ..

 

[Spidey2112]

Not scientific - but the result was/is an awesome sounding bass. (lighter too!)

black & blond P makeover (etc)

I guess I can cross, 'Observe Ash Borer with OCD' off the ole bucket list...

 

[Mark Sacchetti]

3D quality of the notes? ...

Pete has successfully created a process of chambering that produces a acoustic like property to the notes. I have a Catcomb and a Whaleback and you hear the difference. Damien Erskine has a few videos of his latest Skjold that you can listen to.

From the Skjold website. " the catacomb option adds uparalelled acoustic resonance while retaining all the midrange character."

 

[bholder]

The weight of comfortable electric basses sits between 8.5 and 9.5 pounds. ... Do the math.

This is a highly subjective statement. True for you perhaps, but it's a matter of taste and personal preference. I'm personally ok with anything under 11 pounds generally, and over is ok if the bass is worth it in other ways. Not that I don't like light basses for long periods standing (I just don't do that much these days).

 

[Mark Sacchetti]

Sent from my iPhone

 

[bholder]

I have one of these, and I notice two things compared to my Epiphone Jack Casady hollow body. One is the tone; two distinct instruments, tone-wise, and the Zenith seems not to want to feed back as does the JC if I dial in too much gain.

I think that's the (or at least one) difference between a chambered solidbody and a true semi-hollow like the JC (which has an "almost floating except for the bridge block" top and is entirely hollow otherwise).

 

[bholder]

Sent from my iPhone

Nice. I gotta practice more.

 

[yodedude2]

what about something like this?

 

[bholder]

what about something like this?

View attachment 1021611

It'll sure help with the weight, though I doubt it affects tone much - I think the chamber has to be (mostly) enclosed to get the resonance effect.

 

[JIO]

I guess I can cross, 'Observe Ash Borer with OCD' off the ole bucket list...

Design = balanced aesthetics & function. It's all how one observes intent.

 

[JIO]

Yes and using the router to carve those slots increases the price of the instrument from Metro to NYC by almost 2k dollars ... does this make sense?
For me not much ... two cases 1) Metros are underpriced (what's the purpose?) 2) NYC are largely overpriced and Sadowsky found a weak justification which he also (stupidly in this case) disclosed ....
Some other ideas?

In fact it does make sense that all of the extra physical work that goes into chambering a body results in added cost. How much added is subjective and theirs to determine as it's not only weight saving but tone shaping. At the end of the day he runs a business and how things are listed/priced factor in to running that business.