Chord chart question

[Mushroo]

Putting aside for the moment what is "correct," as others have pointed out, it's worth noting that many guitar players think strictly in terms of sharps, no matter what the key signature. For these folks, Bb is always annotated as A#, Eb is always annotated as D#, etc., regardless of the key. I'm okay with that if it helps them play the right chords at the right times.

I blame digital tuners.

 

[brianrost]

C# dim 7: C# E G A#

Melodic and harmonic minor scales might have the major 7 but they lack a flat 7 (when ascending) so:

G# A# B C# D# E F## (harmonic ascending)

G# A# B C# D# E# F## (melodic ascending)

G# F# E D# C# B A# G# (eiher one descending)

G# looks nicer as Ab anyway, avoiding double sharps:

Ab Bb Cb Db Eb Fb G (harmonic ascending)

I have yet to see a book that says you can mix sharps and flats...definitely not in a key signature, nor as accidentals. That's why double sharps or flats exist.

 

[Don Kasper]

C# dim 7: C# F G A#

C#, E, G, A# - Yes? C#dim7?

 

[brianrost]

C#, E, G, A# - Yes? C#dim7?

I edited it already...shouldn't be posting while eating dinner

 

[nnnnnn]

I have yet to see a book that says you can mix sharps and flats...definitely not in a key signature, nor as accidentals. That's why double sharps or flats exist

Do you mean within a single chord, or within a scale, or within a song?

Because in a song it is very common to have accidental flats even though the key has sharps, e.g., in D major, two sharps, you might have a Bb major chord as part of a bVI-bVII-I progression. Nobody with any common sense would notate that as an A# chord.

 

[nnnnnn]

I see a lot of A# in guitar chord charts...There are lots of A#'s running around on the Internet.

True. You'll see progressions that should be Bb-Eb-F written as either A#-Eb-F or Bb-D#-F. Those charts usually aren't very reliable even aside from the sharps versus flats issues, e.g., they often don't know the difference between the types of seventh chords.

 

[mambo4]

I learned that you would refer to minors as flats and majors as sharps

I think youre source might have left out some important context when you learned this. While there are situations where flattening a note will change a scale or chord from major to minor, or vice versa, the two concepts are generally unrelated. A chord or scale can be major or minor regardless of what accidental it might contain.

 

[JohnnyBottom]

my simple minded thought is every scale has a 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 and
each of those would be a different letter note... ABCDEFGA or BCDEFGAB etc....
depending of the mode or scale some of those notes will be sharped or flatted... but always a different letter.

 

[FeltTipPen]

Wow guys, this is great. I am reading and re-reading all the knowledgeable input. Some of it I will understand more not because of the explanations but as I gain experience.

One thing that Mushroo said that stood out was blaming digital tuners. Definitely yes for me as I've always known the D#/Eb as D#.

Great thing is that I've started to adjust to these chord charts and know where I'm going

(Edited for clarification)

 

[FeltTipPen]

Salud!

some people find it a bit strange calling Bb and Eb A# and D#, respectively. And some people raise an eyebrow with B#, Cb, E# or Fb.

Greetings Krakmann! That is interesting as I didn't think there would be scenarios where a C notated as B#, etc.

 

[Mushroo]

C# dim 7: C# E G A#

Melodic and harmonic minor scales might have the major 7 but they lack a flat 7 (when ascending) so:

G# A# B C# D# E F## (harmonic ascending)

G# A# B C# D# E# F## (melodic ascending)

G# F# E D# C# B A# G# (eiher one descending)

G# looks nicer as Ab anyway, avoiding double sharps:

Ab Bb Cb Db Eb Fb G (harmonic ascending)

I have yet to see a book that says you can mix sharps and flats...definitely not in a key signature, nor as accidentals. That's why double sharps or flats exist.

You're way overthinking this.

Have you ever played a ii-V-i in a minor key like D minor or G minor? Impossible to do without mixing sharps and flats.

For example if you were singing "Autumn Leaves" in G minor, the melody at the end of the A section, on the words "of red and gold" would be D, E, F#, Bb.

 

[Papageno]

One example of where sharps and flats can occur together are diminished chords:
C#dim7 = C# E G Bb
Otherwise diminished chords frequently require using double flats:
Cdim7= C Eb Gb Bbb

 

[Mushroo]

Greetings Krakmann! That is interesting as I didn't think there would be scenarios where a C notated as B#, etc.

The easiest "though experiment" for understanding B# and E# is to think of the key C# Major, with 7 sharps. Since there are 7 notes in the scale, this simply means "everything is sharp" so:

C Major = C D E F G A B C
C# Major = C# D# E# F# G# A# B# C#

That's the simplest example I can give, to answer the question, "Why do enharmonic notes like E# and B# exist?"

 

[FeltTipPen]

The easiest "though experiment" for understanding B# and E# is to think of the key C# Major, with 7 sharps. Since there are 7 notes in the scale, this simply means "everything is sharp" so:

C Major = C D E F G A B C
C# Major = C# D# E# F# G# A# B# C#

Thanks for that explanation, I played the C# scale to visualize and can see the F as E# and the C as B#.

And I know there other concepts for me to learn, such as why C# has all sharps, is that the only key with all sharps, etc. Much for me to learn! It's exciting though!

 

[Mushroo]

Continuing the "thought experiment" to its logical conclusion:

C Major = no sharps, no flats = C D E F G A B C
C# Major = 7 sharps = C# D# E# F# G# A# B# C#
Cb Major = 7 flats = Cb Db Eb Fb Gb Ab Bb Cb

All of the "commonly used" major keys (like G major = 1 sharp, E major = 4 sharps, Bb major = 2 flats, etc.) lie somewhere between the polar extremes of C# = 7 sharps and Cb = 7 flats.

Finally if you visualize this relationship, not as a straight line between two polar opposites, but as a snake eating its own tail, then you get the "Circle of Fifths."

Whoa.

 

[FeltTipPen]

Whoa indeed!

I'm going to print that out and leave it on my music stand.

Many many thanks Mushroo for your explanations! As an ear player who has sometimes felt that theory concepts were too difficult to absorb, I believe I'm making quite a bit of progress just from this thread!

 

[La Faro]

This is the same, but you may prefer if you are going to the effort of printing

 

[FeltTipPen]

Thank you La Faro! That is great!

 

[thetragichero]

the circle of fifths will show you why i hate when the singers decide a song should be in B.... C or Bb are loads "simpler" for everyone to play. up or down. crap or get off the pot

 

[jamro217]

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