Chord chart question

[Krakmann]

Greetings Krakmann! That is interesting as I didn't think there would be scenarios where a C notated as B#, etc.

Yes. Take the rule "you don't repeat letters". If you take, for example, A flat minor, you have

A♭, B♭, C♭, D♭, E♭, F♭, G♭

As "B" has alredy been used for Bb, you can't repeat "B" for the natural B, so it is Cb instead. The same for "E". It's been used for "Eb", so "E" is Fb. And this "don't repeat letters" is the reason double flats and double sharps exist (or at least one of them).

In real life, people I know would never use "Cb". They would say Ab, Bb, natural B (or just B), Db...

 

[brianrost]

Have you ever played a ii-V-i in a minor key like D minor or G minor? Impossible to do without mixing sharps and flats.

For example if you were singing "Autumn Leaves" in G minor, the melody at the end of the A section, on the words "of red and gold" would be D, E, F#, Bb.

Using an F# accidental in G minor (because of melodic minor ascending) would be OK even in a flat key signature (I have seen and done this myself), but then you can't use any flats for other accidentals. You can notate the F# as Gb, after all it's an accidental! There is no such thing as a harmonic minor or melodic minor key, only a scale.

The original question was about chords in charts, for chords you cannot mix sharps and flats...period.

I am done arguing about this, if you want to freely mix sharp and flat accidentals in a chart be my guest.

 

[Mushroo]

Using an F# accidental in G minor (because of melodic minor ascending) would be OK even in a flat key signature (I have seen and done this myself), but then you can't use any flats for other accidentals. You can notate the F# as Gb, after all it's an accidental! There is no such thing as a harmonic minor or melodic minor key, only a scale.

The original question was about chords in charts, for chords you cannot mix sharps and flats...period.

How would you account for a "jazz chord" like A7b9 for example? Wouldn't that be written with both C# and Bb accidentals?

Do you own a Real Book? Have a look at Charlie Parker's "Blues for Alice," measure 2, for example.

Going farther back in history, another really excellent example of mixing sharps and flats is J.S. Bach's masterful suites for solo cello. The D Minor suite in particular breaks my heart. For example that D7b9 (D Eb F# A C) in measure 14 of the prelude is just so devastating. Did you know that in his groundbreaking Well Tempered Clavier, Bach made a point of using each of the 12 tones of the chromatic scale, in each of the 48 preludes and 48 fugues? A good composer can play any sharp, or any flat, in any key, and find a musical way to make it "work."

 

[Papageno]

The original question was about chords in charts, for chords you cannot mix sharps and flats...period.

Well, in Gminor (harmonic minor) the bIV chord in Ebmaj7, whereas the vii chord is F#dim7, which can be used as a substitute for the V (dominant) chord D7b9.

 

[Pacman]

The original question was about chords in charts, for chords you cannot mix sharps and flats...period.

How do you spell a C7(#11) then?

 

[SteveCS]

...
The original question was about chords in charts, for chords you cannot mix sharps and flats...period.

...

Bb+ and F#° are both diatonic chords in key of G minor (2b).

 

[brianrost]

OK, last post, really...

key of G minor:

G A Bb C D Eb F

no F# !!!!!!!!! Melodic and harmonic minor use F#/Gb but it's an accidental in the key only used when ascending the scale (although in jazz, often used descending as well). F# diminished is not diatonic in the key of G minor. F major is.

Bb and Eb are in the key signature, F# would be notated as an accidental.

How do you spell a C7(#11) then?

C7(#11) is not a sharp chord. It's a C7 with an extension which is an accidental...not diatonic. I'm guessing you mean key of F major here, so one flat in the key signature, the #11 (F#, Gb) accidental can be notated as sharp or flat on the staff .

Bye!!!!

 

[SteveCS]

OK, last post, really...

key of G minor:

G A Bb C D Eb F

no F# !!!!!!!!! Melodic and harmonic minor use F#/Gb but it's an accidental in the key only used when ascending the scale (although in jazz, often used descending as well). F# diminished is not diatonic in the key of G minor. F major is.

Bb and Eb are in the key signature, F# would be notated as an accidental.

Sorry Brian but you are wrong on this one. In the minor key, all notes of natural, melodic ascending, melodic descending and harmonic minor scales are considered diatonic, regardless of their appearance or otherwise in the key signature. A chord built of any of the diatonic notes is considered diatonic. It makes no difference if the roots of those chords appear in the signature or if they are written with accidentals. So, notwithstanding the fact that they are written with accidentals, in the key of Am, the notes F# and G# (Major 6ths and Leading Tone), are nevertheless diatonic, as are the triads built from them.

 

[EarnestTBass]

I have yet to see a book that says you can mix sharps and flats...definitely not in a key signature, nor as accidentals. That's why double sharps or flats exist.

In the interest of the academic discussion, above I have attached a paragraph from page 133 of "Mel Bay's Complete Book of Bass Essentials" by Bunny Brunel.

There are many ways to approach music theory and I will not argue about what is "correct" However, I do find it easier to remember, and understand, that the melodic minor scale, and all of its modes, are a weird key change in which you start with Ionian and then flat the 3.

 

[Papageno]

Sorry Brian but you are wrong on this one. In the minor key, all notes of natural, melodic ascending, melodic descending and harmonic minor scales are considered diatonic, regardless of their appearance or otherwise in the key signature.

Agree with the above. So, in Gminor, one may find an E or an Eb (not D# !) and an F or F# (not Gb !) depending on the choice of minor scale.

 

[SteveCS]

Agree with the above. So, in Gminor, one may find an E or an Eb (not D# !) and an F or F# (not Gb !) depending on the choice of minor scale.

And, if we harmonise the minor key, all of the triads containing either of the flavours of 6ths and 7ths are also diatonic. There are 13 diatonic triads in the minor key, compared to 7 in the major key...

Taking Am as the simplest example:
The supertonic chord can be diminished or minor - B, D, F or B, D F#
The mediant chord can be Major or Augmented - C, E, G or C, E, G#.
The subdominant chord can be minor (D, F, A) or major (D, F#, A).
The dominant can be minor (E, G, B) or major (E, G#, B).
The submediant can be major (F, A, C) or diminished (F#, A, C).
The subtonic chord is major, G, B, D.
The leading tone chord is diminished (G#, B, D).

 

[Richard Lindsey]

Sorry Brian but you are wrong on this one. In the minor key, all notes of natural, melodic ascending, melodic descending and harmonic minor scales are considered diatonic, regardless of their appearance or otherwise in the key signature. A chord built of any of the diatonic notes is considered diatonic. It makes no difference if the roots of those chords appear in the signature or if they are written with accidentals. So, notwithstanding the fact that they are written with accidentals, in the key of Am, the notes F# and G# (Major 6ths and Leading Tone), are nevertheless diatonic, as are the triads built from them.

This is exactly right. Functional harmony in minor keys allows the use of both the major and minor 6th and the major and minor 7th, and all of those notes and the chords that use them are diatonic by definition. And it is by no means true that certain tones are only to be used ascending and others only descending, even in classical music.

On that note, it's also worthwhile to remember that key and key signature are not the same thing. The conventional key signature doesn't determine the key, it just reflects it, to a greater or (as in the case of minor keys, somewhat) lesser extent. It's merely a notational convenience that makes reading and writing easier by reducing the number of accidentals. You could write music in any key in any key signature, if you really wanted to put in the work. So the fact that F# is not in the key signature conventionally used for G minor does NOT mean it's not diatonic to the key of G minor.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

Yes. Take the rule "you don't repeat letters". If you take, for example, A flat minor, you have

A♭, B♭, C♭, D♭, E♭, F♭, G♭

As "B" has alredy been used for Bb, you can't repeat "B" for the natural B, so it is Cb instead. The same for "E". It's been used for "Eb", so "E" is Fb. And this "don't repeat letters" is the reason double flats and double sharps exist (or at least one of them).

With octatonic scales such as the half-whole and whole-half diminished, you have no choice: You HAVE to repeat one tone.