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Chord confusions!

O

OnlyJerry

Mar 28, 2011
165
0
Bryne, Norway
#1
Hello fellow bassists,

As stated in my previous thread I'm a beginner who's working hard to understand what this game is all about. At the moment I'm focusing on chords; and I've become a bit confused.

As far as I've come to understand the Major 7th pattern consists of the root note(1), major third(3), perfect fifth(5) and major seventh(7). Four notes if you don't include the octave(8). When I stared looking into chords on Invalid Link Removed and got quite confused when his Major 7th chord didn't include the perfect 5th.

I understand that the major triad consists of Root, major third and perfect fifth. Major 7th would then be a major triad including the major 7th.

Don't you need all the notes in the chord pattern to make the chord complete? Playing a Major 7th chord without the perfect 5th would make the chord incomplete, or am I wrong?

And one last question. The C Major chord consists of the notes C, E and G. If I were to play these notes spread out across the fretboard(as opposed to playing them in the given 1/3/5 pattern), would the chord still be a valid C Major?
 
#2
The chord IS 1, 3, 5, and 7 of the major scale of the root. However, depending on musical context, some notes may be omitted from the voicing. Two good reasons include keeping it from sounding muddy and not having enough voices to get all four tones. Specifically the fifth is the least important tone. The root tells you what the foundation is. The third tells you whether it's major or minor. The seventh is the color tone. So, if I can only voice there notes I've leaving out the fifth.

However, for a bassist, playing the three or four notes all at once is seldom called for. And give that the piano or guitar will likely drop the fifth and the root from THEIR voicings, bass players tend to play those two first.

ANY combination of 1,3, and 5 is the chord. If you play a G, someone else sings an E, and the glockenspiel plays a C, it's a C chord.

John
 
#3
Thank you for your reply, JTE. That cleared things up a bit. What I didn't notice was that he played several strings at once - whereas I thought he plucked them all separately.

Take a look on the Bass Lick of the Day page on Play Bass Now with MarloweDK - free bass lessons, funk bass exercises, bass guitar lessons, bass tutorials, electric bass lessons, learn to play funk. Many of those funky/groovy licks are what I want to be able to play. Unfortunately it's hard to keep up with the clips when there is no explanation or tabs/diagrams to relate to.

Is there any widely known way to practice chords? Right now I'm just running the different patterns up and down the fretboard.

Thanks again!
 
#4
This is a quote from someone at another site:

"This maybe a bit difficult to believe, but when you have Root, 3rd, and 7th tones added together it implies the 5th tone. "

He goes on to explain the theory in depth, but I'll leave it at this unless anyone wants the full quote.
 
#6
Not the site you were asking about, however I found this helpful.

Chord Formulas

Here is a chart that may come in handy.

Bass Patterns based upon the Major Scale box.

Major Scale Box.

G|---2---|-------|---3---|---4---| 1st string
D|---6---|-------|---7---|---8---|
A|---3---|---4---|-------|---5---|
E|-------|---R---|-------|---2---|4th string

Basic Chords
Major Triad = R-3-5
Minor Triad = R-b3-5
Diminished Chord = R-b3-b5

7th Chords
Maj7 = R-3-5-7
Minor 7 = R-b3-5-b7
Dominant 7 = R-3-5-b7
½ diminished = R-b3-b5-b7
Full diminished = R-b3-b5-bb7 Harmonic minor and melodic minor will use the full bb7

Scales
Major Pentatonic = R-2-3-5-6
Minor Pentatonic = R-b3-4-5-b7
Blues = R-b3-4-b5-5-b7
Major Scale = R-2-3-4-5-6-7
Natural Minor Scale = R-2-b3-4-5-b6-b7
Harmonic Minor Scale = R-2-b3-4-5-b6-7
Melodic Minor Scale = R-2-b3-4-5-6-7

Major modes
Ionian same as the Major Scale.
Lydian use the major scale and sharp the 4 - yes, it’s that simple.
Mixolydian use the major scale and flat the 7.

Minor Modes
Aeolian same as the Natural Minor scale.
Dorian use the Natural Minor scale and sharp the b6 back to a natural 6.
Phrygian use the Natural Minor scale and flat the 2.
Locrian use the Natural Minor scale and flat the 2 and the 5.

Generic Notes.
The root, five and eight are generic and fit most any chord. Remember the diminished has a flatted 5.
The 3 is generic to all major chords.
The b3 is generic to all minor chords.
The 7 is generic to all maj7 chords.
The b7 is generic to all dominant seventh and minor seventh chords.
The 6 is neutral and adds color, help yourself to 6’s. I like R-3-5-6 under major chords A, B, C, etc.
The 2 and 4 make good passing notes. Don’t linger on them or stop on them, keep them passing.

In making your bass line help yourself to those notes, just use them correctly.
Roots, fives, eights and the correct 3 will play a lot of bass.
 
#7
OnlyJerry said:
Would you mind posting a link to the site? If it's a page worth visiting.
Click to expand...

Not a site, but an explanation that was given to me. Here it goes...

Understanding why the 5th is implied can be implied can be quite tricky, so I'm glad you asked. It actually goes back to the overtone series (which ties in with physics). Basically, when you play a note, the wave produced is composed of a number of sinusoidal components (or partials) added together at varying amplitudes. For our purposes the important components are whole number multiples of our root note (or fundamental). The 1st overtone is the root, which you get by multiplying the fundamental frequency by 1. The 2nd overtone is obtained by multiplying the frequency by 2 (perfect octave), and the 3rd overtone multiplies the frequency by 3. The 3rd overtone is actually a perfect 5th away from the octave. So, anytime you play a note, you already have the perfect 5th as a component of your note. So by omitting the 5th in your chord, you aren't actually losing the 5th tone, since it is built into your root note already.

If it helps, think of the overtone series by thinking of the guitar's harmonics. When you pluck a string, all harmonics (including the root note) contribute to the vibration of the string. When you place your finger at the half way point of your string (above the 12th fret), you are forcing the string to vibrate at the frequency of the second overtone (the octave), and by dividing the string length by 3 (7th and 19th frets) you are forcing the string to play the perfect 5th. Each of these harmonics are part of the original note. As it turns out, the 2nd and 3rd overtones are a pretty significant part of the overall sound of the note.

Now, if I wanted to play chord with an altered 5th, I have to play the altered 5th or else I would be implying the perfect 5th. In fact, part of the reason b5 and #5 sound so dissonant is because of the implied perfect 5th in the root. Because of the first 3 overtones, we can understand why the most consonant intervals are in order: perfect unison, perfect octave, and perfect 5th (as well as why modified unisons, octaves and fifths sound so dissonant).

 
#8
OnlyJerry said:
....Don't you need all the notes in the chord pattern to make the chord complete? Playing a Major 7th chord without the perfect 5th would make the chord incomplete, or am I wrong?
Click to expand...

Our bass line need not contain all the chord's notes - as has been covered already. Here is another reason:

In the beginning there was the root and the root was good. The root become lonely and it was found that the 5th made a perfect mate. Remember we talked about generic bass lines earlier, well roots and fives are generic to most chords - the diminished is an excpetion, but, I seldom see a diminished chord in what I play. So the root and the five will let you lay down a generic groove under most chords.

Lot of bass is played with just the root or the root and five. In fact Country is mostly R-5-R-5 with chromatic runs to the next chord. So no you do not have to play the whole chord all the time. And as said it's a good idea for us to get the Root in there. Why? One of our jobs is to call attention to the next chord. The chromatic run alerts everyone that a chord change is coming and then the root being the last note of the chromatic run lets them know what chord - is next. Give it a try. You are on the C note playing C roots and you want to get to the F note so you can play F roots. Walk to it - C#, D, go up a string for the E then land on the F for the 4th beat. You just did a chromatic run.

OK you are playing F roots and the song is moving to the G chord how do you walk to the G chord. Well there are a bunch of ways - how about backing up to the E and start your run from there - E, F, F# and land on G. Yep, it's a lot of fun. Now you got to get back to the C how are you going to do that? You tell me. Hint - drop down a string...... be there on the 4th beat.

Have fun.
 
#11
Very simply, a chord tone can be implied. Even the 3rd can be if you play the root and fifth. The melody will imply a major or minor third, even if it never rests on either. Kinda like how your eye can fill in something that wasn't really there, or you ear can hear something that really didn't happen. Spooky, huh?

And CEG is a C-chord no matter how far apart the notes are, or even in what order. You can invert the chord by using the E or G as the bass note (a bass note is NOT always the root).
 
#12
Minotauros said:
Not a site, but an explanation that was given to me. Here it goes...

Understanding why the 5th is implied can be implied can be quite tricky, so I'm glad you asked. It actually goes back to the overtone series (which ties in with physics). Basically, when you play a note, the wave produced is composed of a number of sinusoidal components (or partials) added together at varying amplitudes. For our purposes the important components are whole number multiples of our root note (or fundamental). The 1st overtone is the root, which you get by multiplying the fundamental frequency by 1. The 2nd overtone is obtained by multiplying the frequency by 2 (perfect octave), and the 3rd overtone multiplies the frequency by 3. The 3rd overtone is actually a perfect 5th away from the octave. So, anytime you play a note, you already have the perfect 5th as a component of your note. So by omitting the 5th in your chord, you aren't actually losing the 5th tone, since it is built into your root note already.

If it helps, think of the overtone series by thinking of the guitar's harmonics. When you pluck a string, all harmonics (including the root note) contribute to the vibration of the string. When you place your finger at the half way point of your string (above the 12th fret), you are forcing the string to vibrate at the frequency of the second overtone (the octave), and by dividing the string length by 3 (7th and 19th frets) you are forcing the string to play the perfect 5th. Each of these harmonics are part of the original note. As it turns out, the 2nd and 3rd overtones are a pretty significant part of the overall sound of the note.

Now, if I wanted to play chord with an altered 5th, I have to play the altered 5th or else I would be implying the perfect 5th. In fact, part of the reason b5 and #5 sound so dissonant is because of the implied perfect 5th in the root. Because of the first 3 overtones, we can understand why the most consonant intervals are in order: perfect unison, perfect octave, and perfect 5th (as well as why modified unisons, octaves and fifths sound so dissonant).
Click to expand...

That's something pretty freaking interesting!! I knew bits and pieces of this but never made the connection. Awesome!
 
#14
Russell L said:
And CEG is a C-chord no matter how far apart the notes are, or even in what order. You can invert the chord by using the E or G as the bass note (a bass note is NOT always the root).
Click to expand...

Tru dat. An Fmaj does not have to be the dreaded full barre chord. Any triad anywhere of F A C is an Fmaj.

I call inversions "leap frog", because the bass note leaps over the others. Hey, that's me. :eyebrow:

R 1 2
C G E
E C G
G E C

Root, 1st inversion, 2nd inversion. There is no 3rd inversion for a triad, but there is for 7th chords.
 
#16
Minotauros said:
My head still explodes like the Martians' heads in Mars Attacks! when they heard the Slim Whitman recording, when I read this. :D
Click to expand...

Heh, heh, that's funny right there, Mino.

Seriously, though, I understand. Until you get the hang of it all it can be real confusing. The trick is to have someone explain it correctly. There is much material out there that only confuses the reader even more than before they ever got started. I've thought about writing a course myself. And you don't have to go beyond the basics of intervals, chord construction, and progressions, plus some understanding of rhythm. If'n ya ever start studying theory get to a piano where you can see what's happening. Learn about the key of C first.
 

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