• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Chords and their corresponding modes

#101
raymondl3 said:
And why would one want to espouse such an approach? Knowing the modes does not "deny the common elements." Take a look at the notes in D Dorian and you'll find the same notes as C Ionian. However the significance of Dorian is starts on D and ends on D, which creates its own sound. You need to know that sound so that when the 2 chord comes around you don't noodle randomly in C Ionian. Sure the progression may eventually resolve to C, but along the way there are tensions and movements that have to be addressed. I"ll challenge you with this:
Play the following notes: A B C D E F G A both forward and backward. Make sure you start and stop on A. If you can honestly tell me that that scale sounds like C major, I'll agree with you. Now do the same thing for this one D E F G A B C D. Does that sound like C major too? Try it.
Click to expand...

How DEFGABCD will sound is determined by the tonal center that is somehow present in your inner ear. If someone would hoot the (bass) note C into your ear for five minutes, it would be hard to not think of DEFGABCD as C major starting on the second interval.

If they would blow you with the bassnote D for some time, the C major scale and all of its modes will sound as Dorian.

So: the character of scale is determined by both the scale itself and the harmonic context.

All the examples and remarks on secondary dominants, parallel harmonies etc etc. only come down to the relationship (tension if you like) between the chords/scales of a piece and its tonal center(s) AKA the harmonic context.
 
#102
Chris K said:
How DEFGABCD will sound is determined by the tonal center that is somehow present in your inner ear. If someone would hoot the (bass) note C into your ear for five minutes, it would be hard to not think of DEFGABCD as C major starting on the second interval.

If they would blow you with the bassnote D for some time, the C major scale and all of its modes will sound as Dorian.

So: the character of scale is determined by both the scale itself and the harmonic context.
Click to expand...

True but in my example the harmonic context would have been D-7 for DEFGABCD. If you played the same notes over Cma7 I'd just call that C Ionian, although in either case if I were improvising I wouldn't just play straight up and down a scale.
 
#103
raymondl3 said:
True but in my example the harmonic context would have been D-7 for DEFGABCD. If you played the same notes over Cma7 I'd just call that C Ionian, although in either case if I were improvising I wouldn't just play straight up and down a scale.
Click to expand...

Fully understandable. The only difference between us still remaining is about what can be considered as harmonic context and that's what the entire argument in this thread is about.

Single chords may constitute a harmonic context, but that will result in pretty static music. Or in chord hopping, where the progession of the chords is pretty ramdom. Some music just does not have a definite tone center.

But in the majority of cases, the harmonic context will contain entire chord progressions moving around some tonica. If the tone center is C, Dm7 nor the scale DEFGABCD will ever be Dorian.
 
#105
Chris K said:
Single chords may constitute a harmonic context, but that will result in pretty static music. Or in chord hopping, where the progession of the chords is pretty ramdom. Some music just does not have a definite tone center.
Click to expand...

And that's exactly what raymondl3 is opposing. We have a veritable stalemate here.

As I said, unless we have a reference to an official harmony rulebook, this can't be settled.
 
#106
Honestly I think this modal analysis happened after the fact:
A bunch of jazz cats in the 50s were soloing crazy over chord progressions.
they were using the chord tones and adding in what their ears wanted
some theory wank wrote it all down and said "hey, this looks like the Xth mode of the Y scale"

I have no basis for this belief other than the fact that, from what I have read of coltrane and others of that era, they spoke in terms of chords, not modes and scales.

I could be wrong tho...but it doesn't change the fact that either approach, properly applied, sounds the same.
 
#107
mambo4 said:
Honestly I think this modal analysis happened after the fact
Click to expand...

Modes (reasonably close to what we use today) predate jazz by a thousand years. From 800-1500, these 'church modes' formed the basis for nearly all western music. 6 of the 7 modes mentioned here were well established by the time of the renaissance. (My music theory text didn't say where locrian came from)

Modal analysis = playing zone

Using altered (chromatic, non-diatonic) notes = playing man-to-man

Equally valid ways of playing defense but you need to pick the right method for the situation and your 'team'.
 
#111
A break down of what the OP asked for (& a bit more)

powellmacaque said:
What chord types go with modes?
Click to expand...
Chord Defined:
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
Chord help.
Invalid Link Removed

Mode Defined:
a. Any of certain fixed arrangements of the diatonic tones of an octave, as the major and minor scales of Western music.
b. A patterned arrangement, as the one characteristic of the music of classical Greece or the medieval Christian Church.

Diatonic defined:
Diatonic refers to musical elements derived from the modes(A formulation derived from the Chromatic Scale) and transpositions of the "white note scale" C–D–E–F–G–A–B

Some history regarding the origin & original intent of MODES:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/sta/sta19.htm
Scroll down & read past the heading below:
THE CONSONANCES OF THE MUNDANE MONOCHORD.


None of the above is IMHO.
 
#112
dpbass66 said:
When I was younger and at Berklee in an improv class, my instructor (a notable bass player who plays with Bergonzi, among others), criticized my playing at one particular moment, saying" You are playing ALL THE RIGHT NOTES, BUT I DONT HEAR THE HARMONY.....", meaning he wasnt hearing the changes going by, because i was playing a 6-2-5-1 turnaround using just a conglomeration of the notes from the I chord (or the ionian scale). Back then I saw that just playing over the I chord could get me through the turnaround, but it DOES NOT SPEAK TO THE LISTENER ABOUT THE CHANGES. Thats why we cant ignore each individual chord (sound) and just pick notes from the "key" or I chord in a diatonic situation. I never forgot this moment because it was very enlightening. It taught me that you cant just "gloss' over the harmony, and there are no shortcuts to effectively speaking through your improvisation. The vi chord has a distinct voice unique from the next chord (the ii chord) which is also minor and in the home key. In addition, there is whole lifetime of study and art and craft to how one resolves from the V chord to the I chord. there are whole books written on the subject.

Still, I havent heard any tell me how one proposes to imrov through say parallel harmony.....a turnaround with secondary dominants, or substitutions that are non-diatonic....hmmmmm....cant use the I chord/home key in that situation....hmmmmm.....

Ive been a long time aficionado of jazz improv , I've read hundreds of interviews and much literature on this subject and all the greats approach this subject very scientifically and precisely, even Coltrane, who was from another era. Of course, to temper that a bit, every great player subscribes to the concept of "learn all the **** and then just forget it and play", as quoted (loosely) from CHarlie Parker, suggesting that even he , a bebop player (who used LOTS of neighbor tones and passing tones to define his style, and the bebop style/language at large), practiced his craft very precisely, but in the end played from the heart. But I'll bet even HE, from the 40's, didnt just plow through a 6-2-5-1 turnaround using just the I chord or "home key". If you read just one of his transcriptions from the Omnibook, I think this is quite evident. The idea is that you get your ears and hands to do what you want when you want by LOTS of years of practice, and then on the gig you play whatv you hear/feel. If you practiced with precision and intention (each chord has a unique sound/scale/mode) when are gigging you will play that way.
Click to expand...

DP great story, advice, suggestion & info.

To me, when a player is given a chance to show his best and he walks or solos over chord changes with a single scale he is showing others he has a limited vocabulary. It is like being able to read & write English but you didn't get past "See Spot Run" or "All, Fall Ball". It's the staple of many a cheesy eighties metal guitarist who loved to solo with a blanket scale.
 
#113
To me, when a player is given a chance to show his best and he walks or solos over chord changes with a single scale he is showing others he has a limited vocabulary
Click to expand...

Let's use the solo changes to "Spain".

|| GMaj7 | GMaj7 | F#7 | F#7 | Em7 | A7 | DMaj7 | GMaj7 | C#7(#9) | F#7 | Bm | B7 ||

I'll suggest that you can use the notes in a B Natural Minor scale throughout - ONE scale. Or a B Minor Pentatonic - ONE scale.

Add in an A# for the F#7, but the notes G and A (or G##) work just fine (-9/+9) for this chord.

Ooo look!... a C#7(#9) chord. Just use the same group of notes from that B Natural Minor scale, and get all those groovy, hip extensions (-9, +9, +11, -13)!

Still think "solos over chord changes with a single scale he is showing others he has a limited vocabulary"?

:D

Why would you want to complicate things by playing EIGHT different modes? Too much to think about - unless you want to sound "academic".

Keep it simple. Find a "collection of notes" and play.
 
#115
Rick Robins said:
DP great story, advice, suggestion & info.

To me, when a player is given a chance to show his best and he walks or solos over chord changes with a single scale he is showing others he has a limited vocabulary.
Click to expand...

Nobody ever tried to deny that. Of course various chords will call for various scales.

But: (this is really the last time folks :smug:):
1. over any chord, a variety of scales is possible, not just one single scale or mode (THIS IS WHAT THE OP ASKED!!)

The limited musician is the one who will play D Dorian over Dm7whatever the harmonic context. This is a limited, manieristic approach, disregarding the general harmonic structure and the atmosphere of a piece of music.

2. What Stick Player wrote.
 
#116
Stick_Player said:
Why would you want to complicate things by playing EIGHT different modes? Too much to think about - unless you want to sound "academic".

Keep it simple. Find a "collection of notes" and play.
Click to expand...

+1

Chris K said:
I honestly didn't read anything out of line in your posts.
Click to expand...

+1

Apologies if anything I said came off as rude. I just want solid references behind every piece of info provided.
 
#117
Chris K said:
The limited musician is the one who will play D Dorian over Dm7whatever the harmonic context. This is a limited, manieristic approach, disregarding the general harmonic structure and the atmosphere of a piece of music.
Click to expand...

That's an unfair characterization of modes. Modes are better employed by looking at a series or grouping of chords in the music to see what mode best fits the grouping or series. The grouping or series could be 3 or 4 chords or it could be a whole song or anything in between. Multiple modes fit a single chord, it's only in the larger context that one should select a mode as a guide from which to choose accompanying notes in the bass.

As in any other complex endeavor, modes are a shorthand system to enable learning and speed up ability to come to a reasonable level of performance.
 
#118
Rob22315 said:
That's an unfair characterization of modes. Modes are better employed by looking at a series or grouping of chords in the music to see what mode best fits the grouping or series. The grouping or series could be 3 or 4 chords or it could be a whole song or anything in between. Multiple modes fit a single chord, it's only in the larger context that one should select a mode as a guide from which to choose accompanying notes in the bass.

As in any other complex endeavor, modes are a shorthand system to enable learning and speed up ability to come to a reasonable level of performance.
Click to expand...

I do not see how I can be unfair if
1. I completely agree with you on this, since
2. my only point has been that, exactly as you point out, chords and modes do not fit one to one, that scales may run across multiple chords, through progressions, that Dm7 might be Dorian in C major, Prygian in Bb major, Aeolian in D minor...

Read back, it's all there...

As for modes as a shorthand system, I would say that IMHO the approach from classic theory and harmony is way easier to learn.

If you read music. There seems to be another thread going on about that... the answer is YES.
 
#119
I find it funny how it appears nobody read anything in the "NOT IMHO"(post # 111) but went directly to my opinion & left out my example why I think the one scale over chords mentality is not the best way to do it & what kind of player uses it the most. My opinion was directed at nobody here other than DPbass66 in regard to his comment "it DOES NOT SPEAK TO THE LISTENER ABOUT THE CHANGES". I would say to our ears it's mush! It's like mashed potatoes without gravy, salt, butter, jelly or whatever you prefer. If that’s what you like, eat it, but don't expect others to feel the same way.

SO.........with that out of the way.

Is it not apparent that the OP asked "What chord types go with modes?"? Let’s say it is assumed. BUT! Then the OP went on to give EXAMPLES. If you notice he isn't even giving diatonic examples. So I interpreted his post as this is what he was asking for. It appears to me the OP is in the beginning stages of learning & lacks the know how to build chords directly from the scales. So in post # 111, I give him all the info & more that he would need to do so. I did this,with links, definitions & a little history, rather than give him my worthless opinion about how I would like or want things to be. Remember he said he is a "BAD SEARCHER" So I just did it for him. While some just chose to argue & spew their philosophies back & forth.

Stick_Player said:
Why would you want to complicate things by playing EIGHT different modes? Too much to think about - unless you want to sound "academic". Keep it simple. Find a "collection of notes"
and play.
Click to expand...

First off I don't find it complicated at all. Secondly, not to musically sound academic as a player but to know the player understands there is an Academic Way to approach it. Other than to just run one scale over a group of chords. It's a
shortcut, it makes playing actually harder and to me it is novice. I guess it just depends on how much the Hard Drive between your ears could hold & who you are auditioning for.

In Grade 6, I was taught: from the Chromatic scale is derived the formulation of other scales. In the case of this thread the Ionian Scale (W-W-H-W-W-W-H)& Modes of it. From
these scales you build chords & in turn the chords then dictate scales to be used or to draw further information from to be applied how one sees fit or to how another expects it. Now remember this was step one. We did not start right out with Melodic Minors & Pentatonic & Diminished scales. Nor did we worry about anything above the 7th chords in 6th grade they saved the rest for 7th.

Chris K said:
Nobody ever tried to deny that. Of course various chords will call
for various scales. But: (this is really the last time folks)
1.(a) over any chord, a variety of scales is possible, not just one single scale or mode
1 (b)(THIS IS WHAT THE OP ASKED!!)

2. The limited musician is the one who will play D Dorian over Dm7 whatever the harmonic context. This is a limited, manieristic approach, disregarding the general harmonic
structure and the atmosphere of a piece of music.
Click to expand...

1.(a) Correct! a variety of scales ARE possible but did you know that from day one?
1.(b) WRONG!
This is what he asked:
"What are the other chord types and names for the other modes? I know I could just get by with the triads of the chords using a bassline, but I'd like to be able to use the color
tones (thirds, sixths, sevenths, even fourths) in some longer basslines."
" These are the examples he gave" He actually uses the names of the MODES he is questioning about.

Cmaj is the Ionian mode/major scale
C7 is the Mixolydian mode
Cmin is the Aeolian mode
and Cdim is the Locrian mode (although I guess Locrian could also be written as Cmin b5).

2. Read what I told Stick Guy! & Dm7: If a player knows the Ionian based Modal system, he would know he could diatonicly find a Xmin7 in three of the Modes.

For another take on the subject.
In discussions with Jeff Berlin. He has more than made it known that the way I was taught as described above, is a weak method. He thinks you go straight to chord tones. Talk like Tarzan for a while then go to scales & perfect your speech. He has also made it known that he thinks that playing in Key Centers is a weak concept & he will sit with anyone and prove it. My opinion differs with him on the first point but I agree with the second.
 
#120
Chris K said:
I do not see how I can be unfair if
1. I completely agree with you on this, since
2. my only point has been that, exactly as you point out, chords and modes do not fit one to one, that scales may run across multiple chords, through progressions, that Dm7 might be Dorian in C major, Prygian in Bb major, Aeolian in D minor...

Read back, it's all there...

As for modes as a shorthand system, I would say that IMHO the approach from classic theory and harmony is way easier to learn.
Click to expand...

Glad we agree then. ;)
 

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back