Chris Wolstenholme: The Sticky Ver. 1

[kaputsport]

Album has leaked, and is not bad, but different.

 

[JumboJack]

I freekin' love the new single.

 

[AidanHampson]

As for the "not too different" comment, I think you would be hard pressed to find any "dubstep artist" using a Kitara, or any other real instrument. I can say with the utmost certainty it is mostly Reason and a computer, and if you have ever seen Skrillix live, you can see he is a laptop and a turn table, and maybe a few pads for triggers.

This doesn't make sense to me. Are you suggesting that there is a significant difference between triggering a sound with a button, and triggering the same sound with a button shaped like a guitar? I don't see a distinction there, therefore there is no distinction between what Muse and Skrillex are doing, despite what Bellamy suggests.

 

[kaputsport]

This doesn't make sense to me. Are you suggesting that there is a significant difference between triggering a sound with a button, and triggering the same sound with a button shaped like a guitar? I don't see a distinction there, therefore there is no distinction between what Muse and Skrillex are doing, despite what Bellamy suggests.

Skrillix uses a laptop. A Kitara actually requires the ability to play an instrument to use effectively. So yes, I am saying that they are different.

And it is not a "button shaped like a guitar". It is a full 24 fret neck with 6 strings. You have to fret the note to make it play. The pad just changes how the note is effected or played. Quite different than a mini pad or laptop.

Put it this way, as I said. Skrillix is not going out of his way to use a Kitara because it is easy, unless he knows how to play the actual instrument.

 

[MADChuudoku]

its definitely different, but i still dont get all the hate for the laptop players, so what?

they still have to make all the sounds etc beforehand, its not like they have some magic program that just conjures up songs for them whilst they just dance about.

live its mostly just triggers etc, some guys still 'play' with pads and triggers and stuff where you do need to know what you're doing otherwise youll just **** it all up.


people just love to hate, haters.

 

[kaputsport]

its definitely different, but i still dont get all the hate for the laptop players, so what?

they still have to make all the sounds etc beforehand, its not like they have some magic program that just conjures up songs for them whilst they just dance about.

live its mostly just triggers etc, some guys still 'play' with pads and triggers and stuff where you do need to know what you're doing otherwise youll just **** it all up.


people just love to hate, haters.

I am not hating on the laptop players. I am always intrigued on how they create their music...

However, to claim a band using a controller which requires IMHO more skill to operate correctly than a mini pad or sequencer, makes the band less good, or whatever is BS.

Chris probably thought this was a cool addition to his rig, and can still run circles around many people on here. He just wanted to do something a little different, and the community has come out to say he is an idiot, and they hate new muse...

So much for reinvention...

 

[jwr]

I don't like it at all. Muse had a good sound and they ruined it with this ****. IMO it's the worst I've ever heard of Muse. I dislike it on the principal that I dislike dubstep. It sounds cheesy as **** in the Muse songs.

 

[AidanHampson]

Skrillix uses a laptop. A Kitara actually requires the ability to play an instrument to use effectively. So yes, I am saying that they are different.

And it is not a "button shaped like a guitar". It is a full 24 fret neck with 6 strings. You have to fret the note to make it play. The pad just changes how the note is effected or played. Quite different than a mini pad or laptop.

Put it this way, as I said. Skrillix is not going out of his way to use a Kitara because it is easy, unless he knows how to play the actual instrument.

You're missing my point. The strings do nothing but control/produce a sound in exactly the same way a laptop might. It doesn't matter whether you strum/pluck/hit a button if the source is the same. Guitars sound different to trumpets because they are distinct instruments producing different sounds by controlling sound waves differently.

Try this analogy: I have VLC on my mac, I can make a movie play by pressing space or by using my iPad as a remote over wifi. You're saying that the end result is different because I've used a different controller to send the info to VLC, I'm saying it doesn't make a difference.

 

[kaputsport]

More to the point, the sound can be made by "conventional methods", but is uncontrollable because of sh!tty tracking. Take a listen to this review I made of the Bass Synth Wah. I play the riff in here, and it is good, and very close, but more than one attempt confuses the pedal.



So for ANYONE to make a sound like this, which is not crazy out of the question for a band, one has to go outside the possibility of using a string.

I mean, at least he is finding a way to play the part instead of just using a sequenced track. No one is ever happy. If Chris didn't change some things up, everyone would basically say he is stale and out of ideas. He changes things up, and he is a traitor. If Muse did another OoS, people would call them stale, but because it is different, it is horrible.

News flash... OoS is 11 years old!!!!!!!!!!

 

[AidanHampson]

You do realize the Kitara has an audio out right? So, realistically, aside from having to understand the way a guitar works, to produce the correct notes and scales to play, you can send a tone from it, like a strings instrument through a pedal board and go from there.

I think you need to see a review of the kitara, considering it is more about being an instrument that is electronic than a laptop. But keep believing what you want. I guess we can count on you not buying the album?

Maybe don't listen to this then...

I've read many reviews of the Kitara (and also quite like the new Muse stuff), and found this on the kitara website:

"This was the thought process when designing the Misa kitara. There are no strings on this instrument. The right hand doesn't pluck strings, it controls sound.

So don't compare the kitara to acoustic guitars or electric guitars. Those are different instruments, for different art forms, for different music. This is electronic music."

Which is PRECISELY my point. It still sends midi signals which control pre-created sounds, exactly like a laptop. Why does it matter whether the sound is created onboard or at the other end of a cable coming out of it? The net result is the same.

 

[honotron]

However, to claim a band using a controller which requires IMHO more skill to operate correctly than a mini pad or sequencer, makes the band less good, or whatever is BS.

What does madness have? 2 or 3 notes? I wouldnt say in this particular case it takes any more skill.

 

[AidanHampson]

What does madness have? 2 or 3 notes? I wouldnt say in this particular case it takes any more skill.

I don't think it takes any more or less skill than hitting a mouse button.

Why all this focus on skill anyway? CW is hardly the most technical/skilled bass player out there. Surely that's not what Muse's music is all about...?

 

[jwr]

It's horrible because it sounds like crap. Not because it's different.

 

[AidanHampson]

Please, play a Kitara and come talk to me.

Playing Kitara and talking to you at the same time...? I'm not sure I could manage that.

If anything, this shows the inherent dislike of laptops within musicians. The only reason CW is using a Kitara is because he's embarrassed about something not shaped like a guitar on stage. Are you trying to argue with me that a Kitara exists for any other reason? Do you really think it sounds different to anything a laptop could produce and therefore merits it's existence on a musical level?

 

[Gadgetjunky]

Ok, I know I'm going to get told I'm an idiot or something, but I like the new Muse stuff. Is Madness a difficult song to play, no...but it is very pleasing to me and has some tastefull subtleties to it. How many here actually write their own music? Well, it's actaully more difficult to keep it simple than you'd think. I know I want to go in there and re-invent bass, play something that will blow people minds and the result is usually just too busy, too much. So I applaud Chris for working the 'less-is-more' approach. Not a lot of people like the synthy bass sounds, maybe it's only bass players that like it and then only a few of the bassist at that.

 

[AidanHampson]

You do realize you completely ignored the fact that this can produce sound, and be run through a rig, right? You are also assuming that this sound was made on a laptop, which I can say with almost 100% certainty it was not.

The best part about this is that you dislike it, and I like it. I love the sound, and the song, and think they did a great job with the whole album (Which I have now) and you are arguing the merits of laptop vs controller. So, I'll finish my thought here because this is detracting from the point of this thread, and I hate that it has come to this.

The Kitara, will require you to know notes, and chords when playing. It is an instrument designed to be played live, and control a synth.

A laptop with midi pads and programmable sequencers are not instruments, but tools to create music. You can program any midi pad in any way, and use the tool to manipulate the sound. A guy with a laptop and a midi pad controller he set up to change his sequences is not acting the part of a musician, he is a glorified DJ.

The Kitara, or any other note centric controller (keyboards, etc) REQUIRE you to understand where your notes are, and are generally designed for an artist to control a sound, not a sequence live on stage for the sake of performing. Pressing buttons to change the sequence, or to play a single not piano part in an order you practiced on a midi pad does not a piano player make. ANYONE can string a piano riff together on a laptop, program the triggers to a pad, and play the riff over and over again.

The main difference is that Chris could miss a note, make a mistake, or fret the wrong note (Which he did at a live performance). Not saying a mistake cannot be made in the other setup, but this would be akin to pressing the wrong button, rather than fretting a note in a performance.

I am all for ANYONE with a lack of musical ability using a laptop to write if they want. I am all for creation in anyway, but to liken a Rock band to a dubstep remix artist, based on 1 tool in 1 song, which is more of a performance instrument than a sequencer is hilarious to me.

You think playing a Kitara is like pressing a mouse button? Good, put your bass down, and start playing the mouse.

You've missed my point again. I am not attacking CW's skill on bass and I'm not attacking the album. I fear that your obvious fanaticism of Muse's bassist (I've watched your videos) makes any comment made against them extremely personal to you and makes you respond as if I've said something about a member of your family.

Can we please put this idea of 'skill' aside. I've never listened to music because of what their fingers had to do to produce it, and i'm presuming neither do you. I'm not at all interested in the means they used to create the sound, all I'm interested in is what comes out of my speakers after I've pressed play.

Having put this idea of skill aside, lets look at the Kitara. It's a glorified midi controller. It's niche is that you have to fret it like a guitar in order to produce sounds that a laptop could easily produce. I find it interesting that you presume that people only use a laptop to create music because they can't play a guitar. Many talented musicians use the laptop over anything else because it produces a massive range of sounds, and puts them within easy reach of the musician. They realise that this shortcut makes music making, easier, cheaper and more effective than spending extortionate amounts on things like kitaras etc just because they also happen to play bass.

The end result is the same, I couldn't tell if the synth sound coming from my speakers at home are from a laptop or a kitara because they both contain an almost exact piece of software that creates soundwaves digitally. The kitara is a gimmick used to sugar coat this process and fool fans into thinking that because more fingers are used to create this noise, it's somehow more valid.

 

[AidanHampson]

So to you, regardless of the tools used, if it sounds pleasing to the ear regardless of content or talent, you like it. Beiber fan are you?

That doesn't make sense... why do you think I like what I listening to Justin Bieber?

A true artist in the industry is not using a laptop to create his music, unless that laptop is a DAW.

Define true artist. People like Squarepusher and Aphex Twin are not 'true' artists? Check this out:

http://www.spectrasonics.net/news/news-content.php?id=60

Does this relegate Herbie Hancock to 'untrue'?

Also saying that the laptop could easily produce the same sound is hysterical. Sure, technically, the laptop is capable of producing the tone that is the sound, but the laptop is incapable of performing unless programmed. THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE! This conversation has never come up regarding keyboardists. No one on this site has ever trash a keyboard player saying the laptop could do the same easier. Why is it an issue when a musician who normally plays bass uses a tool to create a waveform, and then process that wave form through a synth? Do you not see the difference here? One is only able to be programmed, the other is a performance tool, which cannot do anything except be at the hands of a live performance.

Of course I see the difference, the initial point is that Muse are using different tools to trigger the same sounds that dubstep artists use. I still don't see much of a musical difference.

I'll go buy a Kitara, run it through my fathers Motif and into a PA. You, grab a laptop, and use ANY SOFTWARE you want. The only thing you are allowed to use with it is an 8 pad midi controller for triggering, and a laptop... Hell, take a turn table too.

We both bring our rigs to a festival jam, and we will see which requires skill and talent to use. I'll play along with everyone there, while your still marking tempos and key signatures and trying to find the right sound.

Your laptop is useless without programming, and that programming is done before hand. I understand there is a bit of programming or setup with the Kitara as well, but in the end, the Kitara can be used as a live instrument, as in live in the moment, continue to jam and make this performance different than anyone has heard.

Wonder why seeing Linkin Park live is disappointing? Ever wonder why Hysteria is exactly the same length at every performance? Sequencer programming, click tracks and limited ability to deviate from the norm.

Both can make the same sounds, but only one can be operated real time using skill and understanding of music. That is something Skrillix and all the other guys using laptops will never have, unless every sound is setup, and every note is programmed to a midi pad... But then you just have a keyboard. The reason they use a laptop, is because they cannot play a keyboard to the ability they need to for the song they are playing, so they program it.

I am guilty of it as well. We used a synth arpeggio in a song. It was actually played live by my father, but at a speed so slow that you would not enjoy it. Once all parts were built, we sped it up, and ran the sequence. Muse have also done this before, using real synths, but no one ever complained then.

Why now?

Explain this to me again, but in terms of musicality and creativity. I'm really not fussed about how much time they saved by spending money on another instrument as this seems to be the only difference you've highlighted. Explain to me why using a Kitara has more musical merit than a laptop when it sounds exactly the same.

The keyboard argument is also interesting, I also think that using a kitara has no advantage over a keyboard. Why have Muse made things more complicated than they needed to? I'm sure they could, and probably loads of keybaords lying around. It's all about how it looks on stage and how they validate their new sound to their fans. 'It may sound like electronica, but look we're playing things that look like guitars! We're not really jumping on the bandwagon, honest!'

How can that be a good thing?

 

[AidanHampson]

I actually do understand it, but there is more to the point than the actual sound.

How can you say that that is more the point of music than the actual sound? That's ridiculous. Music is the point of music, not technical geekary.

 

[NeroJazz]

Jesus! Give a rest guys.....

 

[KeTeVemCovers]

Thats still a poll about his gear right?