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Double Bass Christian McBride
- Thread starter GMarto
- Start date
Oh man, you've gotta be a classical bass major or something; only someone who is would say something like that.
Ray Brown said he studied with a different symphony guy in every city he stopped in on tour when he was younger. It's not the same as studying with Orin O'Brien for four years straight, but you get the idea. To me Ray's bow technique was great.
But be that as it may, there have been many great players in jazz who have had nothing to do with classical study. Sam Jones, O.P., Ray Drummond, Scott LaFaro, Gary Peacock, and Charlie Haden are the first to come to mind.
So to me, Jazz is the foundation of Jazz, and classical is classical.
Sorry man, but you are seriously wrong. Rodney Whitaker, Christian McBride, Scott Lafaro (read his biographies), Eddie Gomez, John Clayton, Milt Hinton, John Pattitucci (in his later years), Ron Carter, Jeff Campbell, Carlos Henirquez, and so on
All of those guys study classical! John Clayton and Christian McBride both played heavy classical, John Pattitucci got lessons from Eugene Levinson for a LONG LONG time and played in a symphony, Ron Carter went to Eastman for Classical Performance and played in orchestras, and so on.
I went to Michigan to get a lesson with Rodney Whitaker and I point blank asked him "In order to be a jazz musician do you need to study classical music?" And he said word for word "Absolutely, you have to, you'd be dumb not to."
You learn the instrument through classical music, and no one said you have to be the next Gary Karr either. But almost every college you go to, you are required to take classical lessons if you're a jazz major.
Anyone want to back me up here?
And I'm not a classical bass major, I'm in high school auditioning for college this year. But I'm fortunate enough to have been exposed to many, many invaluable lessons early in life, and study with some very heavy hitters (if you want to know I'll list them). I'm applying for Music Education and jazz performance
I would if I could. But at the school I went to (the New England Conservatory) and the school where I teach (Indiana University), this is not the case.
I personally think a classical foundation is a great thing to have (Simandl and Nanny, Zimmerman and Bach), and I think at one point I thought it was necessary for any bassist. Then I started meeting all of these amazing jazz bassists who had never been exposed to any of that...
This is a seriously big can of worms that has been opened elsewhere on this forum, though. I don't want to keep Chris Fitz from eating his popcorn while he watches the sparks fly, but we could stick to the original topic. As in: I was just listening to "Vertical Vision" today, and there's this one tune where Christian McB plays an arco double bass/fretless bass guitar soli that just smokes. He's obviously put some time in with the bow and the metronome in his life.
I agree with you that it is the most sound approach, as Jeremy said there are a ton of players who did not do the classical thing who are just amazing - and just as many if not more who sound like they just didn't bother.
You do get points for being more uptight than me about this issue!
I think you are missing some important points about Ray Brown, first of all some of the recordings you listed were in the gut era where there were different standards, also the set up to have a big unamplified sound changes things.
Improvisors are going to hit bum notes if they are stretching. End of story. When it becomes a problem for is when it seems like their they just not bothering to keep their chops together in one way or another.
Also, Peacock studied with Izenzon , a classical player and Red Mitchell.
Man, it's stuff like this that kept me from posting here for so long. I think I liked it better when I didn't.
Ok man, based on what you said, how am I wrong? Everyone you name as having studied classical I did not name on my list as not having studied it, with one exception: Scott LaFaro. Now, you're telling me to read his biographies, right? Well, my final independent study, as a Jazz Bass Major in college, was on Scott LaFaro. Transcribed a bunch of his solos, read his biographies, and interviewed musicians and friends that knew him. Scotty did not have classical training on the double bass. In fact, one of the tradgedies of his death was that he was to begin studies soon thereafter. I forget with who at the moment but this was arranged by Barrie Kolstein. Scotty did however have classical training on the clarinet and had perfect pitch.
As far as what Rodney says, yeah, if you have the opportunity to study classical, you should. I did. It was (is) great. But that doesn't mean it's necessary to play jazz. This is proven by the list of guys I supplied you, to which you have not acknowledged, but only given me a list back of guys who have, which I'm well aware of.
Witness that YouTube clip you supplied, Damon, of C McB and NHOP doing "Bye Bye Blackbird". A veritable festival of out-of-tuneness pretty much from start to finish. Music only bass players could love...
I don't know what your sources are, butt if you read Bill Evans' biography, Scott Lafaros roomate said that every morning Scotty would get up, "do 100 pushups and work on classical etudes all morning with the bow." Second off, I'm not pointing fingers and blatantly saying that you are wrong. At this point neither of us are going to win this argument, and honestly, you can believe what you want, and I'll continue to believe what I want. All I know is that classical music has helped me more than I could have ever wanted thus far, and I'm going to continue it as much as I can alongside with my jazz studies.
"Nyah, nyah, I'm giggin' my a$$ off.... "
But with that left hand thumb showing over the neck it wont last long.
No. That quote is from an interview with Charlie Haden (a jazz bassist voted #1 in Downbeat 20 years in a row with no classical training; you should check him out) who was Scott's roomate at one point, in BassWorld magazine in 1988. The correct quote is:
"Scotty would be up early, work out.. pushups, situps, and be at it all day with the bass".
On what page of the Bill Evans biography does this quote appear? I looked in my copy and didn't see it at all.
I'm sorry, I prefer Rodney Whitaker, former Juilliard Jazz Professor(who by the way studied classical bass for a while...hey, maybe you should check him out!!)
Same thing at Louisville. If you are getting a BA in jazz studies, no classical instrumental studies are required. For a BM, you take four semesters of classical lessons (and take classical juries). You will be exposed to a *lot* of "classical" (i.e., also romantic, baroque, impressionist, atonal, etc.) music either way, but only on your instrument if you're doing a BM.
Back on topic: Christian McBride is one of only a very small handful of jazz players who I actually like to hear arco solos from. Years ago I saw him play a trio set with James Williams and Jeff Watts, and he took an arco solo that floored me. Like him or not, the guy is the real deal. IMO, FWIW, YMWCB, etc.
Ya I was just thinking how I like his arco playing on that Benny Green album testify'n. I don't really care about his technique. I care about my own but with him all I care about is the sound and IMO it's great.
As far as the classical training thing goes... One of my favorite players in my area has studied simandl and all that to learn the positions but couldn't play solo literature up to the standard of most jazz guys because he lacks bow chops. However he's played with Lee Konitz this year and just plain plays great and in tune. He always says to study the classical stuff and do the arco stuff even though he didn't. Point is he didn't and he plays very well.
As far as the classical training thing goes... One of my favorite players in my area has studied simandl and all that to learn the positions but couldn't play solo literature up to the standard of most jazz guys because he lacks bow chops. However he's played with Lee Konitz this year and just plain plays great and in tune. He always says to study the classical stuff and do the arco stuff even though he didn't. Point is he didn't and he plays very well.
I agree. Technique is something you and I study to learn how to produce great sound. CMB is gifted. He produces incredible sound using some unconventional methods. Jazz history is full of cats like that. LaFaro's right hand pizz technique was unconventional (it's been discusses at length on this forum).
Why does anybody care what his left hand looks like? Close your eyes and listen.
But with that left hand thumb showing over the neck it wont last long.
He's been on over 230 recordings since 1990. You think that's about to change?
Hmm. I don't remember that. I could be mistaken. It sounds more like something Chuck Israels would do given his background. Or, maybe even Eddie Gomez. Can you double check on that for us? I'm not trying to prove you wrong. I'm just interested in this detail.
Thanks,
Joe
