Double Bass Chromatic Notes And Being in Tune.

[Jason Sypher]

Ok whoa! Let’s just all settle down. Cello-bass?

You my friend have wandered into a forum full of grizzled double bass players! Welcome. You want to play this crazy instrument so you’re definitely one of us, but you’re obviously at the beginning of your journey. That’s great, we are all somewhere along the same path. You will get a lot of different opinions here. Take them in and do your best. If we seem opinionated it’s because we’ve been there and we care.

I got a teacher when I started and one of the first things he showed me was what you described. It was the first exercise in my Streicher Method book. I remember him telling me that the first finger will tend to creep up as you go up the scale and to be aware and stretch back when going back down. Like others said, it’s not a very musical exercise for a beginner because it’s unfamiliar to the untrained ear. But it was my first assignment and I took it on. Go ahead and do it but do it carefully and don’t give it too much emphasis at this point in your learning. I would suggest working on your Bb scale in that same “half position”. Bb-1, C-4, D-open, Eb-1, F-4, G-open, A-2, Bb-4. The numbers are your finger for that note. This will give you something you can hear as a scale. Remember that a finger placed down until not needed. So when you play the first Bb with the first finger, keep that finger down on the fingerboard when you play the C. Then remove all the fingers for the open D string then do the same thing for the Eb with the first finger, keeping it down while you play the F with the fourth finger, etc. Descending you will have all the fingers in the board for the Bb on the G string then lift the fourth finger to reveal the second finger already down on th A note. The reason why we do this is to create support for the fingers and consistency. Only apply the amount of pressure to the finger to make a clear note, experiment where that threshold is. Anything more is wasted effort.

This may help visualize. This guy uses a little vibrato which is unnecessary for you at this point.

 

[longfinger]

It's hard for me to play three semitones without shifting just or two whole tones. Maybe I need to stretch my fingers a little bit more.

It's the Norm on 1 string, to only be able to play two semi-tones without sifting. Larger than than that, we shift.
left hand
index finger = 1
middle finger = 2
ring finger = 3
pinky = 4

playing F, F#, G on the E string, we'd use fingers 1,2,4. If we want to play G# we have to shift. To play chromatic lines, you need to shift positions. Usually, ascending shift up with 1. Descending, shift down with 4.

 

[Papageno]

Is your teacher really a (primarily) double bass teacher?

A few things you've mentioned (teacher does not use the bow, recommends not using open strings, suggest learning "patterns", you being apparently unaware of Simandl 1-2-4 fingering system and using stretching to reach notes) suggest your teacher might be primarily an electric bass player who occasionally plays DB.

If that is the case, I would suggest to get a teacher who really specializes on DB.

 

[Donald Thompson]

Is your teacher really a (primarily) double bass teacher?

A few things you've mentioned (teacher does not use the bow, recommends not using open strings, suggest learning "patterns", you being apparently unaware of Simandl 1-2-4 fingering system and using stretching to reach notes) suggest your teacher might be primarily an electric bass player who occasionally plays DB.

If that is the case, I would suggest to get a teacher who really specializes on DB.

My teacher is using the Simandl and open strings, it just that scale, C major, he wants me to use a movable pattern since it can be used with other scales. He rates it at level 2 to be worked on later in the semester. He's primarily a double bass players but he does teach bass guitar at the uni. The primary reason why he doesn't me to bow at this stage is because he doesn't want me to be overwhelmed. As for the stretching, I am using Simandl, but I tend to be flat when playing with my pinkey, so I tend to do little micro shifts with my hand/thumb so stay I can in tune.

 

[Jason Sypher]

My teacher is using the Simandl and open strings, it just that scale, C major, he wants me to use a movable pattern since it can be used with other scales. He rates it at level 2 to be worked on later in the semester. He's primarily a double bass players but he does teach bass guitar at the uni. The primary reason why he doesn't me to bow at this stage is because he doesn't want me to be overwhelmed. As for the stretching, I am using Simandl, but I tend to be flat when playing with my pinkey, so I tend to do little micro shifts with my hand/thumb so stay I can in tune.

This all tracks.

 

[Tom Lane]

Except for the bowing and the chromatic exercise, IMHO.

 

[Paps]

Sorry if I appear to be overcomplicating things and this is very unlikely to be an issue.
If you have normal sized hands and a bass with normal string length, say 40"-42", yes at the beginning it may take a while to get used to stretching your fingers in the lower positions. This is entirely normal for a beginner.
I just want to rule out the possibility that your bass has a very long string length or you have small hands.
Just check this out. There is some room for adjustment of string length on your bass if this is the case.

 

[turf3]

Unlike bass guitar, scale patterns aren't really all that portable on double bass, as you quickly run out of neck and end up in thumb position and then the fingering patterns have to become different. For beginner scales there are maybe 5 or 6 different fingering templates for major scales. Of course advanced players will use various fingerings beyond that.

 

[Tom Lane]

Unlike bass guitar, scale patterns aren't really all that portable on double bass, as you quickly run out of neck and end up in thumb position and then the fingering patterns have to become different. For beginner scales there are maybe 5 or 6 different fingering templates for major scales. Of course advanced players will use various fingerings beyond that.

I found the same thing; that open strings and intonating with my ears was far more important than movable patterns. Eventually, I did discover the value of moving vertically on the neck before and above the octave, but it's at the cost of similar tone between strings.

 

[Papageno]

My teacher is using the Simandl and open strings, it just that scale, C major, he wants me to use a movable pattern since it can be used with other scales. He rates it at level 2 to be worked on later in the semester. He's primarily a double bass players but he does teach bass guitar at the uni. The primary reason why he doesn't me to bow at this stage is because he doesn't want me to be overwhelmed. As for the stretching, I am using Simandl, but I tend to be flat when playing with my pinkey, so I tend to do little micro shifts with my hand/thumb so stay I can in tune.

Thanks for clarifying. You should be on track with your current teacher.

One remark though: when using Simandl, the distance between fingers 2 and 4 usually spans a semitone without stretching even in the low positions; so if your finger 2 is on A (G string) you shouldn't need to stretch to play Bb in tune with your pinky (4). Rather, it is the space between 1 and 2 that may require some care to play the Ab in tune with your index (1); if you leave your hand eelaxed, your Ab will be sharp.

 

[Slaphound]

I was going to post this same question as I too am having the same trouble and working out of Simandl. My teacher emphasizes a good left hand form and NOT lifting my fingers off the finger board so high. I'm thinking that slowing down and concentrating on these skills is really the only way to achieve what you are seeking. Hopefully we both learn how to do it. Good luck forward brother Donald.

 

[Wasnex]

Developing the necessary strength is definitely a requirement.

I wanted to add that developing the necessary technique and control to play efficiently are also significant factors.

I think new players tend to essentially pinch the strings between their thumb and their fingers. This approach works, but it's very tiresome.

A more developed player will pull from the core and/or use weight. The idea is the fingers are arched and force is transferred through the arches to the finger tips. Ideally you are not pinching with the little muscles that control your fingers and thumb, your pulling down with large muscles in your arm and back, or letting gravity to do the work.

As far as developing the necessary control. Muscles generally work in pairs. To play an instrument efficiently you learn to use just enough force to get good tone. Applying additional force to press the string to the finger board is just wasted energy that quickly tires you out.

When you first start out, there is tendency to clench. By this I mean both muscles in a given pair are applying force. So the muscle that is trying to press the string to the finger board is exerting extra energy fighting with the opposing muscle.

Ideally when you are closing a joint, the muscle that opens the joint is either not active, or only provides a slight tension to help control the movement. Learning a new instrument integrates a bunch of complex muscle responses, so it take time to develop the necessary fine motor control that will allow you to play without some degree of clenching.

It's a long path to master the double bass. IMHO take your time and try to enjoy the journey!

Good Luck!

 

[Tom Lane]

Developing the necessary strength is definitely a requirement.

I wanted to add that developing the necessary technique and control to play efficiently are also significant factors.

I think new players tend to essentially pinch the strings between their thumb and their fingers. This approach works, but it's very tiresome.

A more developed player will pull from the core and/or use weight. The idea is the fingers are arched and force is transferred through the arches to the finger tips. Ideally you are not pinching with the little muscles that control your fingers and thumb, your pulling down with large muscles in your arm and back, or letting gravity to do the work.

As far as developing the necessary control. Muscles generally work in pairs. To play an instrument efficiently you learn to use just enough force to get good tone. Applying additional force to press the string to the finger board is just wasted energy that quickly tires you out.

When you first start out, there is tendency to clench. By this I mean both muscles in a given pair are applying force. So the muscle that is trying to press the string to the finger board is exerting extra energy fighting with the opposing muscle.

Ideally when you are closing a joint, the muscle that opens the joint is either not active, or only provides a slight tension to help control the movement. Learning a new instrument integrates a bunch of complex muscle responses, so it take time to develop the necessary fine motor control that will allow you to play without some degree of clenching.

It's a long path to master the double bass. IMHO take your time and try to enjoy the journey!

Good Luck!

My generous hour with Rufus Reid he said less than a dozen words to me. Most of them were "just hard enough, no harder". A tough lesson to learn but worth the five words.

 

[Donald Thompson]

Developing the necessary strength is definitely a requirement.

I wanted to add that developing the necessary technique and control to play efficiently are also significant factors.

I think new players tend to essentially pinch the strings between their thumb and their fingers. This approach works, but it's very tiresome.

A more developed player will pull from the core and/or use weight. The idea is the fingers are arched and force is transferred through the arches to the finger tips. Ideally you are not pinching with the little muscles that control your fingers and thumb, your pulling down with large muscles in your arm and back, or letting gravity to do the work.

As far as developing the necessary control. Muscles generally work in pairs. To play an instrument efficiently you learn to use just enough force to get good tone. Applying additional force to press the string to the finger board is just wasted energy that quickly tires you out.

When you first start out, there is tendency to clench. By this I mean both muscles in a given pair are applying force. So the muscle that is trying to press the string to the finger board is exerting extra energy fighting with the opposing muscle.

Ideally when you are closing a joint, the muscle that opens the joint is either not active, or only provides a slight tension to help control the movement. Learning a new instrument integrates a bunch of complex muscle responses, so it take time to develop the necessary fine motor control that will allow you to play without some degree of clenching.

It's a long path to master the double bass. IMHO take your time and try to enjoy the journey!

Good Luck!

I heard it's recommended to sit to force you to use more of your arm muscles. Is this true?! I've also gotten 360 solo string, and I'm hoping they're not too much of a crutch for playing in orchestrated tunning.

 

[SteveCS]

I've also gotten 360 solo string, and I'm hoping they're not too much of a crutch for playing in orchestrated tunning.

Solo tuning is F#, B, E, A, i.e. a whole-step up from standard. If you have solo strings in standard tuning the tension will be lower than intended, i.e. easier on the hands. A potential downside of reduced tension is difficulty intonating. Loose strings are more sensitive to changes in tension, and therefore pitch, created by stopping the string. Inaccurate or inconsistent stopping, for example pushng the string sideways across the radius of the fingerboard (easier to do with reduced tension) or pushing along the string might easily drag you out of tune more so than with standard tension. If you then compensate this by adjusting your hand-shape you are undermining the process of hand-shape development.

...
so I tend to do little micro shifts with my hand/thumb so stay I can in tune.
...

You should really try to work on avoiding this as it will hinder development of good hand-shape which is the key to secure intonation.

You might find this helpful. This chap was my daughter's 'Cello teacher from age 16-18. The idea is for beginners so she was well past needing it by the time she went to him, but take a look - I see no reason why a similar concept would not also work with string bass:
Link Removed

The device itself is like a small 'O' ring positioned in the centre of the back of the neck into which you locate the tip of your thumb. Any small ring held down with tape, or even something like a couple of stacked punch-hole reinforcers, would do the trick.

 

[Donald Thompson]

Solo tuning is F#, B, E, A, i.e. a whole-step up from standard. If you have solo strings in standard tuning the tension will be lower than intended, i.e. easier on the hands. A potential downside of reduced tension is difficulty intonating. Loose strings are more sensitive to changes in tension, and therefore pitch, created by stopping the string. Inaccurate or inconsistent stopping, for example pushng the string sideways across the radius of the fingerboard (easier to do with reduced tension) or pushing along the string might easily drag you out of tune more so than with standard tension. If you then compensate this by adjusting your hand-shape you are undermining the process of hand-shape development.



You should really try to work on avoiding this as it will hinder development of good hand-shape which is the key to secure intonation.

You might find this helpful. This chap was my daughter's 'Cello teacher from age 16-18. The idea is for beginners so she was well past needing it by the time she went to him, but take a look - I see no reason why a similar concept would not also work with string bass:
Link Removed

The device itself is like a small 'O' ring positioned in the centre of the back of the neck into which you locate the tip of your thumb. Any small ring held down with tape, or even something like a couple of stacked punch-hole reinforcers, would do the trick.

That's why I try not too look at my hands when I play. I find this comes easier when playing double bass than bass guitar.

 

[SteveCS]

That's why I try not too look at my hands when I play. I find this comes easier when playing double bass than bass guitar.

The point isn't to prevent looking, rather to create a static and constant location for the thumb from which you then position the fingers. I mentioned it because I think it might help with the micro-shifting that will be hindering your development of good hand-shape.

 

[Wasnex]

I heard it's recommended to sit to force you to use more of your arm muscles.

Depending on the angle in which you hold the bass, sitting may allow you to use weighting more. You can still blow your hand out pinching the strings...so I would not say you are forced.

 

[garrett2]

It's important not to force/muscle anything. When you hear a great vibrato that's playing without forcing anything at all.

 

[damonsmith]

It is recommended to be able to sit or stand. You need to learn the right places the energy comes from from a teacher that starts with the bow and proven method, more than likely Simandl.
Playing the bass is not easy until you get the right positions, stances etc.
Certain stretches and positions may not be comfortable and even hurt a bit at first. A good teach taecher can let you what is OK and what is not.