CITES - What every bass player should know

[kumimajava]

Short answer: CITES applies to any and every international movement of an instrument that contains any quantity of any of the materials covered by the treaty. for the purposes of the treaty, the trade is the same thing as a sale because the owner of the instrument isn't going to return home with it. The "musicians passport" mentioned elsewhere in this thread is only available for an instrument you already own and are going to keep.

Well, that's that settled then A short and to-the-point answer is very much appreciated!

Thanks for taking the time to reply to my question - even if my query betrayed my rather limited knowledge on this matter

 

[Giffro]

I had an extended wait on my Rickenbacker 4003 bass ordered through a very reputable Australian distributor/reseller. They advised me that the shipment of basses was held up in Australian Customs while the guitars were inspected because of the rosewood fingerboards. The delay added a week or more to the delivery date from memory. A minor inconvenience but I was relieved when the bass arrived. John Hall doesn't use any illegal products in his manufacture of Rickenbacker basses thankfully but it does highlight the problems relating to this thread. For example although there are 13 species of "bubinga", only 5 are commonly known as "African Rosewood" so as stated it really depends on the knowledge of the adjudicating inspectors at Customs points worldwide to know the difference in the woods used for the guitar's manufacture. As already mentioned here, if we guys, the actual owners of the guitars, can't tell the difference what hope have we in the faith of inspectors badly trained to detect illegal materials in the construction of valuable guitars. It really can be a risky venture crossing domestic or international borders these days with a treasured instrument. I hope my new EBMM makes it here ok...i'm sure it is "safe" as such being made from Ash and Maple neck with a Maple fingerboard. The whole CITES issue obviously is a needed one to help with the problems of deforestation etc but as a musician of expensive guitars it does make one feel a tad uneasy when buying or dealing in sales of said instruments. I suppose dealing with reputable companies when purchasing a guitar does help as they would need the paperwork to prove what their products contain. I really do hope Border Customs Officers know more than me about the subject because as you can probably tell I dont know much about it at all and that's AFTER reading through the entire CITES pdf file. If nothing else I did come away with a headache loll The Rickenbacker order issue I had was just meant to be an example of the problems mentioned already.

 

[NKBassman]

I haven't really read up too much on CITES, but I've started seeing it mentioned more and more.

How real is this issue these days with respect to new retail sales and shipping to Canada? Say I wanted to order a new bass with rosewood fingerboard from an online retailer based in the USA (something from Sweetwater, Sire, and Warmoth are all under consideration at the moment), would there be any issue?

 

[Jeff Scott]

I haven't really read up too much on CITES, but I've started seeing it mentioned more and more.

How real is this issue these days with respect to new retail sales and shipping to Canada? Say I wanted to order a new bass with rosewood fingerboard from an online retailer based in the USA (something from Sweetwater, Sire, and Warmoth are all under consideration at the moment), would there be any issue?

You can still buy, just that both the seller (Sweetwater) and you have to get all your duck lined up with all the correct documentation/paperwork dealt with. The will probably be longer shipping times/delays while Customs makes sure everything is Kosher before releasing the bass, so your patience will be tested, very likely.

 

[NKBassman]

You can still buy, just that both the seller (Sweetwater) and you have to get all your duck lined up with all the correct documentation/paperwork dealt with. The will probably be longer shipping times/delays while Customs makes sure everything is Kosher before releasing the bass, so your patience will be tested, very likely.

Thanks. I suppose with Warmoth it would be easy enough to avoid ordering anything with an offending wood.
Sire... maybe. But I'm partial to the colors that come with the rosewood fingerboards.
Fender, who I'm assuming would be the most likely to have their poopie together with respect to international shipping, the bass I'm after (new Justin Meldal-Johnsen mustang) has a rosewood fingerboard.

 

[Jeff Scott]

...offending wood...

 

[NKBassman]

Perhaps this has been discussed already, but I found this quote from Fender CEO Andy Mooney when trying to educate myself on CITES implications. Emphasis in bold is mine.

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Fender is committed to the continued use of Rosewood in American-made solid body guitars, such as our American Professional Series. After actively exploring alternate wood options to Rosewood for selective use on a few US models, we will be transitioning most of our Mexico made product away from rosewood to pau ferro, a fantastic alternate we currently use on the SRV signature strat. The American Elite series is transitioning to ebony fretboards with dealers and our inventories. Rosewood is still used on many series of instruments, as it is a historically accurate tone wood. The changeover will be somewhat fluid in the market, there is no set date at this time.

We are still currently evaluating options for Squier and the acoustics category.

FMIC’s specialty brands, Gretsch, Jackson, Charvel and EVH will continue to use Rosewood in both solid body and acoustic models, from all source countries.

Fender is committed as a brand to comply with all CITES regulations and to ensure we are continuing to deliver the best quality and accessible products to our customers and dealers.

– Andy Mooney, CEO Fender

 

[ole Jason]

Perhaps this has been discussed already, but I found this quote from Fender CEO Andy Mooney when trying to educate myself on CITES implications. Emphasis in bold is mine.

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In reply from the other thread I'm pretty sure the answer is yes, you're supposed to have paperwork if you buy an instrument in the USA and then take it back to Canada. You probably know more about Canadian Customs than I do, is that something they'd really check?

It looks like the cost of the re-export license for an American citizen to ship it to you would be $100 and you'd have to wait for the license to be issued. Pretty crap situation if you ask me.

 

[NKBassman]

In reply from the other thread I'm pretty sure the answer is yes, you're supposed to have paperwork if you buy an instrument in the USA and then take it back to Canada. You probably know more about Canadian Customs than I do, is that something they'd really check?

It looks like the cost of the re-export license for an American citizen to ship it to you would be $100 and you'd have to wait for the license to be issued. Pretty crap situation if you ask me.

Re. whether they'd actually check or not, I have no idea. Sometimes it depends on the day. Last time I came back from a concert in Minneapolis they didn't even ask me if I was bringing anything back at all. Other times I've been pulled over and had my car searched from front to back when I've told them I have nothing to declare.

 

[Geri O]

Geez, what a mess.

Thank goodness for maple necks...

 

[NKBassman]

Long story short, I'm wanting to buy a new Fender JMJ mustang signature bass in the fall. With the current CAD:USD exchange rate having rebounded a little bit, it's actually cheaper for me to order online from say, Sweetwater, than it is to get it locally at Long & McQuade.

Sweetwater will not ship instruments containing Rosewood internationally. They suggested I order it from them, and have it shipped to a parcel pick up location in North Dakota, and then go pick it up myself.

Would this constitute "non-commercial" transportation of a personal item under CITES?

 

[NKBassman]

I've also emailed fender to confirm whether or not the JMJ mustang will be switching to Pau Ferro fingerboard in the future, as per the quote from the CEO I posted earlier. It's a brand new MIM product which seems to be going against the policy they just announced, so I'm not sure why they would even bother releasing it with Rosewood in the first place.

 

[ole Jason]

JMJ mentioned high quality rosewood being something he really wanted so I doubt they'll switch it before next year. He seemed to indicate they might offer it in more colors if it sells well so changes are possible though.

 

[NKBassman]

JMJ mentioned high quality rosewood being something he really wanted so I doubt they'll switch it before next year. He seemed to indicate they might offer it in more colors if it sells well so changes are possible though.

Yeah I get that. Might be why Fender has indicated it as a "limited run".

 

[Turnaround]

Sweetwater will not ship instruments containing Rosewood internationally. They suggested I order it from them, and have it shipped to a parcel pick up location in North Dakota, and then go pick it up myself.

Would this constitute "non-commercial" transportation of a personal item under CITES?

I think the border authorities would call it "smuggling".

 

[NKBassman]

I think the border authorities would call it "smuggling".

Only if you don't declare it, which is not at all what I was getting at.
I live about an hour from the border, and my parents live about 10 minutes away, so we ship stuff to parcel pickup in the US all the time.

 

[NKBassman]

Regardless, after everything I've read on CITES it just seems like too big a headache to deal with. If the CAD:USD exchange rate continues to improve I may actually be able to save a few hundred dollars buying the instrument from the USA instead of locally, but dealing with CITES certainly doesn't seem worth the hassle.

 

[Jeff Scott]

Regardless, after everything I've read on CITES it just seems like too big a headache to deal with. If the CAD:USD exchange rate continues to improve I may actually be able to save a few hundred dollars buying the instrument from the USA instead of locally, but dealing with CITES certainly doesn't seem worth the hassle.

CITES was really created to foster buying products from within your own country.

 

[VegetarianBass]

So far my experience with CITES....

I ordered a GPS Warwick Thumb BO 5 string from a local distributor back in February. I was told it'd be a couple months when they're available which was no problem considering I was waiting on other stuff I preordered after NAMM. Fast forward to today and I'm still waiting. The bass has been at some port for a while being held by Fish and Wildlife. They need permits from Germany and is a mess. I'm not holding my breath but hopefully by the end of August.


Buy domestic my friends

 

[Bentley]

Here is how my first sale in 2017 from Canada to the USA went , step by step for a Canadian seller:
a) Seller emails CITES ([email protected]) and has a permit emailed to the seller.
b) CITES emails you the blank permit, you fill in the blanks ...except for the buyer details. My sample permit attached is the exact style of words I used for my sale.... feel free to use those words
c) You email the permit back to CITES and tell CITES to place the permit on hold until you find a buyer.
d) About 2 weeks pass and CITES emails you back a permit number for your submission.
e) Seller places the bass for sale on talkbass....wait until you have that six digit permit number then list your bass.
f) Seller and the buyer reach an agreement ,buyer provides their name and address for the CITES permit (see all details needed for the permit from the attached sample permit)
g) Seller emails CITES the permit with the buyer information ....and pictures of the bass meaning at least three pictures 1) full front of bass 2) full back of bass and 3) a really clear picture of the serial number on the bass. Send these pictures along with the completed permit telling CITES you have a buyer and to take the permit off hold and process that permit.
h) Seller and buyer wait 5 weeks for CITES to mail the seller all the paper permit. The permit received contains all the details of the permit and clearly tells the seller what to. The permit is actually two pieces of paper, those two pieces of paper are already nicely stamped and signed off and will accompany the bass when shipped.
I) Once the seller has the permit then buyer and seller transact financially, seller wraps up the bass and on the outside of the shipping package the seller attached a plastic folder/packing list enclosed type of folder on the outside of the package. That package contains two pieces of paper which are CITES permits... one permit is kept by Canada customs and one permit is kept by USA customs. One that package around that plastic folder write CITES and make is real obvious to the customs people that the CITES permit is right here on the package
J) Ship the bass as usual, at Canada customs one piece of CITES permit paper is kept by Canada customs and after leaving Canada for the USA one piece of CITES permit paper is kept by USA customs.

That is how my first sale went, really easy. Issue is CITES added about seven full weeks to the sale before the buyer has the bass in hand.
Bentley