• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

CITES - What every bass player should know

#421
Has anyone here gone through this personally in customs recently? I've been traveling domestically and internationally with Brazilian RW basses for the last 12 years and have not once been asked to open my gig bag with the exception of one time in Israel where they wanted to scan my Fodera separately from my gig bag to make sure it wasn't a bomb, and once in Canada when a TSA-ish dude said he was a bass player and wanted to see what I had. I'm up to speed on new regulations being placed on builders and whatnot due to Asian furniture getting out of control, but I have yet to actually hear of anyone personally getting their "wood" inspected with just a personal bass while traveling. Lots of damage by airlines, but never someone's personal instrument being taken at the border. Am I just stupidly lucky?
 
  • Like
Reactions: clbass and markjazzbassist
#422
clbass said:
The US Fish and Wildlife Service's Q&A has some insightful information
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Here's an excerpt from the Guidance for Traveling Musicians section, page 18:

Permit Requirements for Individuals

44. Does my instrument need a permit when I travel with it? It does not have CITES listed wildlife components (i.e., elephant ivory, snake skin), but it does have Appendix-II rosewood.

This question relates to paragraph b) of the new annotation for Dalbergia spp. and bubinga. Generally what this paragraph means is that if a specimen of the newly listed Appendix-II Dalbergia spp., excluding Siamese rosewood (Dalbergia cochinchinensis), or bubinga is less than 10 kg and is being moved for non-commercial purposes, it will not require a permit. The 10-kg threshold refers to the weight of the protected species within that instrument, not the instrument itself.

Many instruments, such as guitars and violins, when imported or exported for noncommercial purposes such as personal travel or performance, are excluded from the listing and thus exempt from the Appendix-II permit requirements, as the weight threshold will not be exceeded. However, some instruments may contain more than 10 kg of the protected species, such as a double bass, a marimba, or certain drums.

Even if the Appendix-II Dalbergia spp. or bubinga in an instrument is less than 10 kg, if it is being imported or exported for commercial purposes, such as sale, it must be accompanied by CITES documents.
Click to expand...

thank you this is what i was talking about. i have a 69 Jazz (CBS era) so i'm positive i have indian rosewood and therefore will be fine. i have friends that tour internationally and havne't been stopped either. i wonder if it's mostly a import/export issue and the "rich" coffee table bass guys issue. the beat to poopie roadcase and grungy dude at the airport probably not gonna get stopped. rich dude in suit and rolex with 10k custom bass looking "exotic", yeah.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mitchthebassplayer
#423
markjazzbassist said:
thank you this is what i was talking about. i have a 69 Jazz (CBS era) so i'm positive i have indian rosewood and therefore will be fine.
Click to expand...

Here's the problem: you know that your bass has an Indian rosewood board, but what if your bass is inspected by a customs officer who thinks it's Brazilian rosewood? How can you prove it isn't if you don't have the CITES documents that say so? That's why you need the CITES instrument passport. Look, most bass players can't tell the difference between Brazilian rosewood, Indian rosewood and pau ferro by looking at it. Why would you think customs inspectors would be any better at it than we are?

I have personally had a bass with a cocobolo top held at customs for a couple of months even though the documentation with the instrument plainly showed that it was built before cocobolo was added to the CITES list (Schedule II).

Can you travel internationally without CITES paperwork and get away with it? Sure. But whether you get busted is a function of random chance, and it could happen any time you cross a border. Why take the chance?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Turnaround and clbass
#424
markjazzbassist said:
thank you this is what i was talking about. i have a 69 Jazz (CBS era) so i'm positive i have indian rosewood and therefore will be fine. i have friends that tour internationally and havne't been stopped either. i wonder if it's mostly a import/export issue and the "rich" coffee table bass guys issue. the beat to poopie roadcase and grungy dude at the airport probably not gonna get stopped. rich dude in suit and rolex with 10k custom bass looking "exotic", yeah.
Click to expand...
I've toured all over the world with crazy looking Foderas. Some with "illegal" woods, some not. I've just never even been in a situation where anyone at the border has even cared what was in my bag....I get ready for confrontation every time and absolutely nothing.
 
#427
Passinwind said:
Update: much to my surprise, the Protected Plant Permit has already been issued. So clearly the online application process is worthwhile in this case. On to Seattle in a few days for the physical inspection, so hopefully I'm sensing light at the end of the tunnel.
Click to expand...

And after a 13 hour round trip to Seattle my bass has now shipped out. The guys at The Bass Shop in West Seattle were very helpful and informative, and I had them do the packing job for me while I waited. They told me that since the permits were in my name I would need to handle the shipping part myself, but they pointed me at a Post Office a few blocks away that they ship with very frequently.

The USDA inspection agent near SeaTac asked me for a link to this thread and he would like to help make sure the info in here is current and as useful as possible. When I got home there was already an email from him checking in on how things worked out for me. I'm pretty well thrashed at the moment, but I will post more details tomorrow.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ak56 and 4StringTheorist
#428
The Seattle USDA agent recommended this article as a good primer: Obtaining Proper Permits for Shipping Vintage Instruments Overseas

That summarized knowledge would have saved me a bit of time, but I somehow missed it even though I did look at some other pages on the Vintagemartin website. However, the Portland office apparently doesn't handle the inspection process for MI exports at this time and I was never able to reach them in any case.

One more thing: the buyer has their own set of hoops to jump through in many cases, which also should be done before the instrument ships.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jim Carr, 12BitSlab and markjazzbassist
#430
This affects the U.K. too and most European borders. Any US bands coming the to U.K. Of Europe to tour will have the same issues.

Also selling a bass across international borders is also problematic (even within the European Union). EBay has stopped sellers selling worldwide via their Global Distribution. I just sold a Fender American STD with a Rosewood fretboard and eBay said it is limited to U.K. Only due to CITES. EBay still allows first sales, however, I foresee some issues here if sellers do not have the correct paperwork which could leave buyers hanging.
 
#434
Strictly speaking off the top of my head (I have no idea) it would seem to me U.S. customs are more likely to pay attention to instruments that are coming INTO the U.S. and less so when they are leaving for another country. For those with experience have you found this to be the case?
 
#435
Just a quick question, I'd like to buy a used bass guitar in NYC. It has an Indian rosewood fretboard can I bring it back to Canada without problems? I thought the restrictions only apply the new instruments!

Thanks for your help
 
#436
bassman74 said:
Just a quick question, I'd like to buy a used bass guitar in NYC. It has an Indian rosewood fretboard can I bring it back to Canada without problems? I thought the restrictions only apply the new instruments!

Thanks for your help
Click to expand...
It applies to all, new or used, instruments. However the restriction on rosewood did not take effect until January 2, of this year (2017), so if the bass is older than that, and can be substantiated as being so, it would very much (I think) make it easier to import.

Edit: spelling
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: bassman74
#437
Here's an interesting document that I found on the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service's website. The document answers many questions about selling instruments for individuals and many others. Sorry if it has already been posted.

Information for individuals are mostly on p.20
 

Attachments

#439
One question that occurred to me regarding the CITES process: does it also apply international "trade" deals?

Supposing it is a 1:1 trade, with no cash side-payment, would it still be regarded as an international sale? Or would swap deals be excluded?

Given the number of trades/swaps happening here on TB, that might be of some more general interest... Any input welcome!
 
#440
kumimajava said:
One question that occurred to me regarding the CITES process: does it also apply international "trade" deals
Click to expand...

Short answer: CITES applies to any and every international movement of an instrument that contains any quantity of any of the materials covered by the treaty. For the purposes of the treaty, a trade is the same thing as a sale because the owner of the instrument isn't going to return home with it. The "musicians passport" mentioned elsewhere in this thread is only available for an instrument you already own and are going to keep.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: kumimajava

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back