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Class D amps sound inferior?

#361
As an example, all 4 models of Subway amp use the same power amp module, yet each amp sounds very different (the D-800 & D-800+ sound close though).

It’s what’s done WITH the power amp, and the design in total, that’s responsible for what the whole amp sounds and feels like.
 
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#363
I should add I was lucky enough to visit the USA for the first time in 2019 and got to enjoy a number of days holidaying on both coasts and some Grand Canyon/Vegas action, truly amazing... it's been heartbreaking to see the impacts and unrest in the last 2 years. Live music is always a great panacea for a pained people.
Edit: you poor guys in the UK have also been hit very hard... hope the re-openings stay permanent...enjoy that gig :)
Class D rocks !
 
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#364
PhatBottomBass1 said:
My confusion.

AgedHorse said;

"The switch mode power supply is virtually identical to the power supplies used in all popular class D platforms."

I took this to mean that Class D was related in some potentially significant way. I am not sure if this "switch mode power supply" is a distinct item or a conceptually applied stage of another component. Engineers should be as specific as possible when speaking and possibly not using terms of art or generalities equivicating totally different ideas.

Thanks for clearing that up byacey. Class H has no equivalent aspects to Class D.
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I don't think you're getting this. The power supply has nothing to do with the power amplifier architecture and the class of operation. These are two separate, distinct building blocks in the amplifier. They could even be powered by a bank of batteries, yet still be class D, AB, H, or whatever.

As far as being specific, when another person has enough background knowledge to understand what is being discussed, it's not necessary to thoroughly describe to them all the details.
 
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#366
SteveCS said:
I stopped reading right about here. My guess is he is talking about audiophile equipment. I know, without a shadow of a doubt, I could pick out an Ampeg Fridge from a Bassman 4x15 from a Genz or Berg FRFR, no matter what amp was driving them. Almost all of the colour in a bass rig comes from the cab..
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The question is, could you identify various different amps driving one specific Ampeg cabinet?
 
#369
Windreaper said:
Yeah, I think that would be the correct term. I admit I'm very confused as power supply/amp interactions seem to be kind of complex with ripple also increasing when a linear supply is hit hard (in addition to lower voltage affecting clipping threshold?). In addition, there are often various soft clip circuits built into ss amps. Anyway, there shouldn't be a reason why properly designed amplifiers would sound significantly different regardless of amp/psu topology afaik.
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When an amp is operated in it's normal, linear region, there shouldn't be a whole lot of differences between one class or another. When you start pushing it past what it was designed to do, all sorts of variables creep into the resultant sound, some perceived as good, some bad, but this doesn't mean that one class is superior over another when used the way for which it was designed.
 
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#370
byacey said:
When an amp is operated in it's normal, linear region, there shouldn't be a whole lot of differences between one class or another. When you start pushing it past what it was designed to do, all sorts of variables creep into the resultant sound, some perceived as good, some bad, but this doesn't mean that one class is superior over another when used the way for which it was designed.
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Indeed. One man's spine-tingling gooey saturated sag is another man's affront to all that is decent. Vive la difference!
 
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#375
el murdoque said:
Just tossing this in from the sideline:
Google "Richard Clark $10,000 Amplifier Challenge".
That bloke, Mr Clark has had (or still is, I don't know) a Challenge running where you can specify two amps of your choice and have to distinguish between them in an A/B/X test while listening to music.
You can specify a $200 amp and a $50k amp if you so desire.

The rules in a nutshell:
-Must listen to music (you choose what)
-You choose the cabs
-The amps must operate within their given limits and are set to the same volume - so you can't pick a weak one and a powerful one and listen for distortion. When you pick a 5W amp and a 1500W amp, you'll be running both at a level comfortable for the 5W.
-The amps are set to a flat frequency response. If one of those amps has a baked in EQ thing going that can't be set to be flat, an external EQ will be applied to even it out. You can choose which amp gets the EQ.

This has been running for a long time and AFAIK, Mr Clark has kept his ten grand.

In a way, this also translates to bass amps.
Of course, some bassists do enjoy driving their pre- or poweramp into saturation to get compression and overtones and grit into their signal, something unthinkable in the world of audiophile hifi listeners.

The thing that applies to the bass world is that as long as the poweramp operates within its given limits (clear headroom), an old lead sled and a modern Class D amp will sound identical unless they have been tinkered with.
'More heft' 'more punch' and 'quicker attack because of bigger capacitors' are myths.


It is actually quite easy to rig a passable blind test setup if you have two identical cabinets, an A/B poweramp, a Class D poweramp, a preamp and an A/B switch.The trickiest part is to match the output volume.
Set the cabs side by side and put the amps on top. The tested person gets the switch and the bass.
Run the cables so it cannot be seen where they go (especially the speaker cables) and after each guess rearrange them (or not).
If you're a firm and outspoken believer in the 'fact' that lead sleds are superior to class D, try this alone before you invite friends.
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Nobody still has won the challenge
Richard Interview in 2019
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
 
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#376
seamonkey said:
Nobody still has won the challenge
Richard Interview in 2019
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
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This so reminds me of an @agedhorse past life story about his rather brief stint in high end audio. The bottom line was that he pretty much proved this point in a dramatic way that left some golden-eared egotists (i.e. hi fi snobs) a little embarrassed.

While perhaps not the ideal ending he envisioned for that job , the real music making world got to have him with us pretty much full time from then on. I'm booking that as a win for the professional touring world, all of us bass players, and Andy...while also being an undeniable reality check some self-proclaimed know-it-alls.

I'll let Andy correct anything I may have gooned up or mischaracterized in my quick synopsis. :)
 
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#379
agedhorse said:
A little embarrassed didn’t describe their mood, really pissed off is closer.
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I was trying to put the best light on the story and showcase it as a potential learning and character-building experience for the assembled crowd. However, I do recall you tending to tell the story with a bit more emotion than one would sense in my version. :)

FWIW, I'd like to think if I'd been there I would have been the lone soul saying I couldn't hear any damn difference at all....and probably feeling pretty stupid for being the outlier data point.
 
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#380
MVE said:
After reading all 19 pages, I can only wonder if a class D amp might have the “slam” of a lead-sled if it were equipped with one of these power cords: ;)

Cardas Clear Beyond Power Cable
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The fact that things like this even exist is a testament to the wisdom of P.T. Barnum as it relates to correctly reading the crowd.
 
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