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#41
Watch the name calling, fellas.

My take. I'm a "jazz snob". No, scratch that. I'm a 'music snob'. I like music that requires intelligence. Rush, Miles, The Dregs, Zappa, Yellowjackets. I also can play just about anything, and my phone rings because of it.

To Xavier: you said the musician who can't read isn't at a disadvantage? Unless he wants to make a living.

And Billy Sheehan knows a considerable amount of theory.
 
#42
Here are my top three. None read music and were amazing players.

Paul McCartney
Geezer Butler
Cliff Burton

(Edited to delete name calling, and also to state that theory isnt ALWAYS a bad thing. However sometimes it is used as a means to both feel superior and to avoid creativity. It can be used properly, but isnt a requirement for being good).
 
#45
Originally posted by XavierG


I was trying to be sarcastic. I'm obviously not very good at it. I consider myself a jazzer (but not a snob). I read music. But I do like other styles of music as well.
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oh....sorry.... :D
 
#46
Originally posted by XavierG


I was trying to be sarcastic. I'm obviously not very good at it. I consider myself a jazzer (but not a snob). I read music. But I do like other styles of music as well.
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I caught it Mr. X. I forgot to mention that you're my hero. :)

And brew, dude, check your facts. Quick, what are the changes for 12-bar blues? All of those guys knew at least that much, ESPECIALLY Geezer (Holy cow, Black Sabbath started out as a blues band). And I'm sure they've learned nothing since. :rolleyes:

Edit:

'cept Cliff of course, him being dead and all. Although you're probably right; James "Guitar God" Hetfield probably just showed him what notes to play :can we please get a bigger rolleyes on this thing?:
 
#47
Originally posted by Brewer9

Paul McCartney
Geezer Butler
Cliff Burton
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Perhaps they can't (could'nt) read but music theory isn't resumed in sheet reading.
I guess they (the 3 great bassist you've listed) can (could) put a name on and play some scales, know (knew), chords, a little polyrythmic etc ...

I'm not a Jazz-whatever-you-called-it at all since I mostly listen to rock. But I'm sure a little theory doesn't hurt, whatever you like/play.
When I knew nothing about scales, I was spending a long time trying different things for my bass lines (in metal band). Now that I know a little, I realize that if I knew more at the time, I could I've tried a lot more different things in shorter time periods AND that all the things I found were "in" the scales that I should have played.
 
#48
Yes - Just because you can't read music, doesn't mean you don't know any theory - Paul McCartney has just written a Symphony for crissakes!!

And I'm sure there have been a few Blues/Jazz musicians who didn't read, but knew scales/chords etc.

I played Rock/Pop for 20 years nearly and forgot sight-reading in that time as I didn't practice it. I'm still not that good at sight-reading and probably according to most categorisations I don't read music, but I still know a lot of theory. Well enough to know that virtually every Jazz musician I meet is a long way ahead of me.

Jazz musicians I've met, don't like to brag - but as I've mentioned they can usually outplay anybody at any type of music and I think that's why there is a huge respect for these guys and an interest in what they do. But as Jon said, I'm interested in any "intelligent" music and will listen to a Mahler Symphony, followed by some Blue Note Jazz, maybe some Afro Cuban and possibly even "Dark Side of the Moon" for a bit of "nostalgia". ;)

But you won't catch me listening to anything dull and repetitive or which betrays the fact that very little thought went into the music.

Now if that means I'm a "Jazz Snob" then fine - it sounds better than Angus's idea about the "rock moron" ! :rolleyes:
 
#49
Yeah, absolutely. I think we're misunderstanding what each others definitions of "theory" are.

If its as loose as what you just described then, gulp, even I am a theory guy. But, I think most are saying that theory requires reading music and using trained knowledge of scales as a foundation for playing.

That description rules out a lot of very skilled players. I'm not saying that those who do use theory suck, but I am saying that it does not make a good player on its own. I'll take a player with a cool style, excellent execution, and interesting riffs and runs anyday over a brilliant theoretical player doing the same scales over and over again from a book he got from his teacher.
 
#50
lumpie's post is a trick question - all great bass players "know" theory - that's how they became great, by applying their "knowledge" of theory in a way that allows them to make a good part fit in the song. that's all that "music theory" tries to quantify in easily discussed and shared terminology.

they might not know the semantics ("that's a double-whammy half-step diminished chord") but they know the methods and applications.

the great thing about really "knowing" theory is that it helps universalize even a good player's playing. these good players that don't "know" theory, it's like they're really good mathematicians, but they only know how to deal with a few numbers, say multiples of 1,3,4 and 5. if it's outside of the range of the numbers they know, they can't do the math.

same thing with music - theory starts teaching you the basics (like all the numbers) and then it presents basic applications (like multiplication tables) and then, before you know, you can understand the theory behind all the music you hear.


oh, and brewer, just saw your last post - in my experience, it's the guys who don't have a very deep understanding of music theory that tend to regurgitate the same basslines over and over. look at iron maiden - i mean, i love steve harris, one of my favorite bass players ever, but look at how many times maiden has reused the same chord progressions, especially in the late 80's.
 
#51
I am pretty sure some people are misunderstanding what I am saying here. I could name a lot of great rock musicians, and I could list them all out. But honeslty how many of those guys do you think sat down and said well for our next record here I am going to lock myself away and read a little on music theory. Probably none of them. And I am not saying these guys don't know their music. Hell I have been playing for four years now and when I started out I knew not one damn thing about music, chords, progressions or anything. Now, while I consider myself no expert by any means, I think that I have learned a lot. I know what you can and can't play with certain chords, how to not play the same damn thing over and over again for each different song, and different chord progressions. You have to learn something along the way if you ever want to improve and i know that. For some reason everyone is assuming that I am saying everyone who is now talented an can play the bass well is a complete moron who knows nothing of roots, chord progressions, changes in tempo, changes in time, and all other things. If you interpreted it that way then that wasn't the way it was meant to be interpreted. Sorry for the mix-up
 
#52
I'm not sure what any of us mean. Even myself!

I do think that some players make a lot of effort to learn as much as possible about scales and techniques and read music and figure out what certain bass-runs are based on, etc.

While other guys just simply play and have a great time and dont give a darn what scale their run is from. These guys lean what sounds good and usually figure out which notes are which and various scales that work, but have no idea what they are called or how it developed.

These are entirely different outlooks on playing. Thats what I'm trying to distinguish. obviously I'm not doing a very good job of it.
 
#53
i think the problem here is that too many individuals, for too long, have confused compiling "neat-o theory tricks" with writing "a good song". many theory hounds are guilty of that confusion, and many non-theory hounds hold those examples up as the be-all end-all examples of "theory run amok".

this has been going on for a long time - personally i've never heard a version of giant steps that i would choose to listen to for enjoyment purposes - i'd honestly rather listen to silence. the chord progression in that piece has a "neat-o little theory trick" behind it that, once you understand it, makes the otherwise random-seeming chord progression make more sense.

it's really hard, actually, to not fall into this trap when you're writing a song and you want to use some interesting "trick", but ultimately you want it to stay musical and entertaining to a non-musician.
 
#55
Originally posted by john turner
i think the problem here is that too many individuals, for too long, have confused compiling "neat-o theory tricks" with writing "a good song". many theory hounds are guilty of that confusion, and many non-theory hounds hold those examples up as the be-all end-all examples of "theory run amok".

this has been going on for a long time - personally i've never heard a version of giant steps that i would choose to listen to for enjoyment purposes - i'd honestly rather listen to silence. the chord progression in that piece has a "neat-o little theory trick" behind it that, once you understand it, makes the otherwise random-seeming chord progression make more sense.
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Thank god I'm not the only one who feels this way. I think that way too often GIANT STEPS is a music theory CROTCH GRAB for jazz musicians who are trying to "out-testosterone" each other. The only reason I ever learned it was because I had to in order to teach what the NEAT-O theory trick behind it was. I'll take "Naima" over GIANT STEPS any day.

However, I did hear Hal Galper play a gorgeous version of GS as a painfully slow ballad once, so I can't QUITE say that I've never heard a version that I'd want to listen to...
 
#56
There's Angus, spewing his crap again. How do you know who can and cannot play jazz music in these forums? Some of you people seem to like to tout your greatness on TalkBass because you like to see your names "in lights." It is my experience that those people that have to brag themselves up all the time, do so because no one else will.
 
#57
This is my kind of thread. Its like a good tv show with various characters interacting with each other on layers of plot lines. No one really know where its leading but boy its fun getting there. Who cares what the original thread was (why do so many people care?).
 
#59
Originally posted by brewer9
This is my kind of thread. Its like a good tv show with various characters interacting with each other on layers of plot lines. No one really know where its leading but boy its fun getting there. Who cares what the original thread was (why do so many people care?).
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And even a couple of appearances by the latest Hong Kong action star - ME!
:D:p
 
#60
Originally posted by Hategear
There's Angus, spewing his crap again. How do you know who can and cannot play jazz music in these forums? Some of you people seem to like to tout your greatness on TalkBass because you like to see your names "in lights." It is my experience that those people that have to brag themselves up all the time, do so because no one else will.
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I think this is very unfair criticism - I've been here a long time and never seen Angus bragging about his ability - his gear maybe! ;)

Also - he only contributed one line (!!) - "And what about the "uneducated rock morons"?" - which I just saw as a much-needed antidote to all the people who kept repeating the phrase "Jazz snobs" which was getting a bit tedious. I thought this was terse, apt and quite funny in an ironic way.

I also think that this sort of criticism is also very ironic coming from somebody who chooses to call themsleves "Hategear" - Pot and Kettle spring to mind! :rolleyes:
 
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