Club Alleva Coppolo (Part V)

[Andrew Jones]

Here's my take on this.


LG and Standard 4 are the 60's style basses with indian rosewood you can expect a CBS sounding bass. With the brazilian pre CBS actually 60-62 because of the slab board.

The RA 4 and 5 are alder bodies with 70's spacing like 70-72 jazzes indian rose wood or maple wood be about right.

LM and Modern (four string) are the ash bodied 70's spacing and are most common with maple boards ala Marcus era jazz basses.

1600 seem to be well.....a LG with a figured top wood on the body.

The alleva bent plate 5 sting bridge will have a more vintage (IE narrower frequency range less sustain)tone to it with less sustain than the high mass bridge that would have a wider frequency range and more sustain.


The Nitro pain t was used by fender untill 69 I believe and then used on just the headstocks of 70's basses. It is considerably more fragile than poly. It might sound better, Jimmy thinks so. I feels and looks really nice.It will check/age and discolor over time.


What I'm doing is paralleling the models to classic fenders which are the inspiration. Of course you can mix and match stuff for a unique thing.


Personally I like to spec stuff as close as possible to the era fender I'm trying to replicate.Thats just me and my thing.



Aj

 

[tommixx]

Here's my take on this.


LG and Standard 4 are the 60's style basses with indian rosewood you can expect a CBS sounding bass. With the brazilian pre CBS actually 60-62 because of the slab board.

The RA 4 and 5 are alder bodies with 70's spacing like 70-72 jazzes indian rose wood or maple wood be about right.

LM and Modern (four string) are the ash bodied 70's spacing and are most common with maple boards ala Marcus era jazz basses.

1600 seem to be well.....a LG with a figured top wood on the body.

The alleva bent plate 5 sting bridge will have a more vintage (IE narrower frequency range less sustain)tone to it with less sustain than the high mass bridge that would have a wider frequency range and more sustain.


The Nitro pain t was used by fender untill 69 I believe and then used on just the headstocks of 70's basses. It is considerably more fragile than poly. It might sound better, Jimmy thinks so. I feels and looks really nice.It will check/age and discolor over time.


What I'm doing is paralleling the models to classic fenders which are the inspiration. Of course you can mix and match stuff for a unique thing.


Personally I like to spec stuff as close as possible to the era fender I'm trying to replicate.Thats just me and my thing.



Aj

Well done....I think you nailed it! The only thing I would add is I believe you could get a choice of body and board wood on the 1600 but I could be wrong. I think I saw an Ash/Maple 1600 in a Caramel or Cherry Burst if memory serves...

Peace,

T

 

[KJung]

I have a question for the group.

There are some alder / rosewood LGs for sale now, some with pickups in the 70s position and some with pickups (presumably) in the 60s position.

In your opinion, how would the positioning affect the tone?

It is my experience that the 60's versus 70's pickup position has a relatively minor impact. For example, I hear very little difference between similarly spec'd Sadowsky Metro UV's and RV's (60's versus 70's position), and my 60's position Sadowsky MV5 (ash/maple) sounds MUCH more like my 70's position ash/maple Alleva than my 60's position alder/RW Alleva.

I'm not saying it won't make any difference, especially when soloing the bridge pickup, where the 70's will be a touch more midrangy, but IMO the slight pickup placement difference would be overwhelmed by the impact of body weight and fretboard material.

That being said, if I wanted a 70's style instrument (at least the later 70's style that many of us equate with that era of instrument), I would get the whole package (ash/maple/70's position) and if I wanted a more 60's style vibe, I'd also go for the whole package there (alder/RW/60's position).

IMO.

 

[jonno1707]

All 1600 series basses are standard with:Alder body's-Rosewood boards typically high end-highly figured flamed or Quilted maple tops-Nitro body's and are in 70's position...
Basically loaded up every option!

 

[vision]

It is my experience that the 60's versus 70's pickup position has a relatively minor impact. For example, I hear very little difference between similarly spec'd Sadowsky Metro UV's and RV's (60's versus 70's position), and my 60's position Sadowsky MV5 (ash/maple) sounds MUCH more like my 70's position ash/maple Alleva than my 60's position alder/RW Alleva.

Hey Ken, I know you've talked about that comparison in the past, but do you think that the lack of a difference you're hearing could be due to the fact that you're talking about Sadowsky's, which tend to have their own modern jazz flavor regardless of pickup spacing? I know exactly what you mean about The UV's and MV's sounding the same while having different spacing, but all the Sadowsky jazz's that I've played have the "Sadowsky tone" in them. (The single coil models don't have it as much but it's there!) With the A-C's being more "pure Fender" in jazz tone, I'm wondering if the pickup placement could have a larger impact.

 

[KJung]

Hey Ken, I know you've talked about that comparison in the past, but do you think that the lack of a difference you're hearing could be due to the fact that you're talking about Sadowsky's, which tend to have their own modern jazz flavor regardless of pickup spacing? I know exactly what you mean about The UV's and MV's sounding the same while having different spacing, but all the Sadowsky jazz's that I've played have the "Sadowsky tone" in them. (The single coil models don't have it as much but it's there!) With the A-C's being more "pure Fender" in jazz tone, I'm wondering if the pickup placement could have a larger impact.

Could be, but I doubt it. I think many attribute too much to that slight (very slight) pickup spacing difference since most of the 70's position Fenders are ash/maple and most of the 60's position are alder/RW. So, yes, those two 'versions' of basses can sound quite different. It's hard to determine the exact impact of the different pieces (as we discuss all the time on TB).

The only way to really tell is to play multiple basses spec'd pretty much the same, with the only, or primary difference being the placement of the bridge pickups. The only situation I've been in that mirrors that requirement is comparing all the ash/maple Sadowsky Metro Standards and MV's (or whatever they are called) versus all the ash/maple Metro UV's that came through Low Down Sound over the years. To my ear, they sounded very, very close to each other. Yeah, I guess the UV's had just a touch more upper mid aggression, but it was subtle enough that I don't think you'd hear it in a mix.

I guess my take on it, again, is if you dig the 70's type tone, go for the whole package.... pickup placement, a somewhat heavy ash body, and a maple neck, and ditto for the 60's thing.

IME though. Again, not saying it doesn't make any difference, but I surely wouldn't 'buy or not buy' a J bass on this one criterion.

 

[vision]

Could be, but I doubt it. I think many attribute too much to that slight (very slight) pickup spacing difference since most of the 70's position Fenders are ash/maple and most of the 60's position are alder/RW. So, yes, those two 'versions' of basses can sound quite different. It's hard to determine the exact impact of the different pieces (as we discuss all the time on TB).

This makes sense, and you can certainly hear what most would call a "70's jazz sound" in the Lakland DJ's while they have 60's spacing, so it must be more about the wood.

 

[Jim Dombrowski]

Many players anchor their thumb on the top of the pickup when playing. If the pickup is in a different postion, the tone will be slightly different as their plucking hand position changes in relation to the bridge.

Even if you don't anchor your thumb on top of the pickup, you may be unconciously using the pickup as a reference point for you hand position.

 

[jonno1707]

Its all about the harmonic content that lies at that exact point in the strings length...
Some top players actually go to the lengths of testing and re-testing different positions even down to a 36th of an inch before the pickup hole is routed...
Anthony Jackson has spent hours at Fodera during this process!

 

[narud]

This makes sense, and you can certainly hear what most would call a "70's jazz sound" in the Lakland DJ's while they have 60's spacing, so it must be more about the wood.

if thats the case do you think the skyline joe osbornes that are ash/maple sound like a 70's jazz too?

 

[KJung]

Its all about the harmonic content that lies at that exact point in the strings length...
Some top players actually go to the lengths of testing and re-testing different positions even down to a 36th of an inch before the pickup hole is routed...
Anthony Jackson has spent hours at Fodera during this process!

I agree that every change in every instrument impacts the tone someway. I guess my point would be that once Anthony has that exact pickup placement picked that sounds just perfect, it would sound totally different with another brand of strings, or moving your hand position slightly.

I'm relatively picky, and pride myself on being able to hear many subtle differences among basses, amps, etc. However, sometimes thing just get a bit silly IMO.

 

[KJung]

if thats the case do you think the skyline joe osbornes that are ash/maple sound like a 70's jazz too?

If you get a relatively heavy ash/maple one and put in Aero single coils, definitely closer to the aggressive, quick, grindy nature of a 70's vibe than what most of us think of as a 60's tone IMO. It all depends on how 'exact' you want to get. There are huge variations in tone of real 70's J's also... so I guess on a more subtle level, what IS the exact sound of a 70's J!?!

 

[jonno1707]

Problem is everybody hears things differently and has a different touch and technique so there really is not way to be 100% conclusive on this one boys...
Any bass will sound different in any players hands...

 

[KJung]

Problem is everybody hears things differently and has a different touch and technique so there really is not way to be 100% conclusive on this one boys...
Any bass will sound different in any players hands...

+1 Again, if someone is looking for the most accurate late 70's J vibe in a boutique instrument, there would be little advantage to not trying to emulate the entire package (pickup placement, body woods, pickup design and voicing, etc., etc.). On the other hand, if someone enjoys that '70's type feel and sound' (i.e., aggressive upper mids, quick response, lots of J grind and bounce to the feel), you can pretty much get there by a variety of paths.

Many on TB felt the DJ model was a 70's inspired model, and became 'fooled' by that round bridge extension, which made it look like the bridge pickup was in 70's position (it fooled the eye, since the pickup looked to be very close to the bridge). Those very aggressive Areo single coils, combined with the heavy weight of most of those basses moved that tone closer to what again many of us think of as 'that 70's thing', even though the bridge pickup was in classic 60's position.

 

[jonno1707]

I say get a seventies jazz in ash/maple like mine and be done with it... Ya cant get any closer...

 

[KJung]

I say get a seventies jazz in ash/maple like mine and be done with it... Ya cant get any closer...

+1 If I enjoyed playing a passive 4 string, I'd most likely be playing a Fender J! That is a beauty.

It is funny how all this is so relative. There are a bunch of guys over on the Nordy thread who feel their basses 'sound exactly like a 70's J' or whatever, and I'm like 'whaa'???? Then, of course, I'm over here saying that my LM sounds 'exactly like a 70's J' and the true vintage, passive, 4 string Fender guys are like 'whaa'!!!!???!!!! It's all relative to just how over or under potty trained you are!!!!

 

[svtb15]

I have a kbp5 with a bent plate and an LG5 with the Alleva Bridge.. I did swap out the bridges to do a comparison... then put them back on the correct basses.. the bentplate on my kbp5 has so much sutain its silly.. and it has the bent plate.. its like the energizer bunny it keeps going and going..
The Bent plate does have very slight truncate on the top and lows.. but the sustain seems to be the same on this bass.. For some reason there does not to be much difference in the sustain at all.. the Bent plate does sound slightly punchier in the audible range but the Alleva has a wider freq range or more hifi-ish.. as you have said..
But the kbp5 and LG with the bent plate certainly has just as much sustain with either bridge.. at least on my basses.. i do have very light piece of alder though . .maybe that has something to do with it..

The alleva bent plate 5 sting bridge will have a more vintage (IE narrower frequency range less sustain)tone to it with less sustain than the high mass bridge that would have a wider frequency range and more sustain.







Aj

 

[Andrew Jones]

Well that sounds like a fair test, I have to admit to going off of presumptions rather than facts.Paralleling the basic result of a bad ass vs a stock fender. I was also worried someone would take exception to that because it might make the bent plate sound " not as good" When really it all about our personal view performance in a musical environment. I believe I'd prefer the bent plate.

Plus it just looks cool.



Aj

 

[esoxhntr]

Only one way to put all this to rest - massive Alleva Coppolo GTG.

 

[Vic]

On the pickup spacing thing, I actually hear a fairly significant difference between the 60's and 70's spacing. It's only the bridge pickup, and it's only 1/2" closer to the bridge, but due to its proximity to the bridge, that's actually a pretty significant relative change (IMHO). That said, to Ken's point, while he and I might disagree on the degree of difference, I will say it's not massive or night/day.

I used to generically opt for 70's spacing if at all possible, but in recent years due to some experiences in really messing with this, it's really about the total package.

I think the 70's spacing will compliment some basses, but actually hurt others. IMHO you gain a bit of aggression with it, but you also lose some really nice depth to the bridge tone, so how well it works really depends on the bass design and wood combo (and of course personal prefs/style/etc).

These days, my tastes have sorta' changed and I'm leaning more towards using 60's spacing, and getting my aggression other ways... technique, wood choices, EQ, etc.

That's not to say you can get one to sound identical to the other, but more to say I can get what I need from either one at this point. Also, I currently prefer the 60's spacing because I personally feel it's a bit more versatile... mainly because I think the somewhat fatter bridge tone means it's a bit more usable solo, or at least more favored in the blend, and still has plenty of burp/grind/bite at the same time.

Usual IMHO/IME/YMMV disclaimer. Lots of subjectiveness on this topic.