Club Fbass (Part 4)

[Tom7]

the alleva coppolo thread is pouring champagne and toasting since they heard narud was over at the f bass club

Laughing! No relief for me though, I'm in BOTH!

 

[Tom7]

While I do sometimes gush over gear, I also always set my own stuff up... especially when new, and for the same exact reason, so +1 on that.

I REALLY wish I could.

I don't know if you read in the Nordy Club some time ago a (shall we say) very passionate post by Carey Nordstrand. He was upset that someone was selling one of his Nordy basses without having had it very long.

I didn't really approve of the post, but I did think he brought up a GREAT point: learn to appreciate the bass for what its builder intended it to be, and that can take time.

So I stick with the "factory" (not sure that's the right word when it is a hand made bass) set up for awhile, then when I'm sure I know it, I start messing with it.

I just wish I was better at it.

 

[narud]

Ah, my sunburst is alder and rosewood.

I hear you about the gushing, but given that all this is so SUBJECTIVE, and a matter of opinion, I think many if not most of us stay kind of quiet when we encounter someone gushing about a bass that didn't quite do it for us... that way we don't rain on the parades of those who are digging them, you know?

the problem is that now that talkbass has turned into clubsville, you can only really find any info on specific brands in their respective club threads. without the counter opinion, it seems like all of these basses are gold.....theyre not. ive talked with guys who didnt want to post their negative experiences with luthiers because they didnt want the club jumping down theyre throat (its the internet for crissakes). that leaves potential buyers thinking these things are perfect. im not hating, just posting the positves as well as my perceived negatives.

 

[Vic]

FWIW...

Maybe I walk the earth with rose colored glasses, but just because Joe speaks plainly doesn't equate to the kind of negativity he seems to be accused of here IMHO. And while he doesn't need my approval (nor does anyone, I know that), I do think he's taken a few undeserved hits here.

Again, FWIW.

 

[Tom7]

seriously man...we're talking about basses here. thats it. ive told george i didnt think some of the vf's did it. after getting this one and tweaking with it, im here saying it can do what it was intended to do. doesnt sound like a slam to me.

i make a living playing and teaching music. i buy gear for a specific purpose. i cant afford to buy one of everything. the vf5 is doing something pretty unique and i dont think the clips ive heard so far have been that flattering.

as to tom, i just thought the post of "why would hadrien go with an overseas smith instead of an f bass" pretty funny. he obviously doesnt see the appeal of those specs, i dont see the appeal of caron's specs. thats it.

Yeah, I think I get you now, Joe. You just came on awfully strong at the beginning, and pretty negative and caught us all off guard.

As I said from the very first post: Hadrian's bass doesn't do it for me. I get why some guys like narrow spacing (and I didn't mean to dis that), and all, but that bass really isn't for me, nor would it probably be for a lot of guys who are used to well balanced basses with 19mm spacing, etc.

I think we're cool, Joe.

BTW, I'm having trouble keeping up here, and now I've got to go coach my sons' basketball team, so I'm out.

Just wanted everyone to know that, lest my absence be interpreted as me being upset and leaving or something.

Cheers!

 

[Tom7]

im really a very nice guy..........i love sunsets......walks on the beach..........a nice ballad

[Chuckle]Yeah, I think we were matched up accidentally on eHarmony.com.

See y'all later guys!

 

[Vic]

I REALLY wish I could.

Seriously... it is NOT hard to do. You should learn. You'll be blown away you waited so long. I can't tell you how great it is to basically ALWAYS have the bass set up EXACTLY the way you want, and FREE. I don't mean to take anything away from your local techs, but if it's purely mechanical (no actual "repair" to be done), you really should be doing it yourself. It's not rocket science at all.

I don't know if you read in the Nordy Club some time ago a (shall we say) very passionate post by Carey Nordstrand. He was upset that someone was selling one of his Nordy basses without having had it very long.

I didn't really approve of the post, but I did think he brought up a GREAT point: learn to appreciate the bass for what its builder intended it to be, and that can take time.

So I stick with the "factory" (not sure that's the right word when it is a hand made bass) set up for awhile, then when I'm sure I know it, I start messing with it.

I'm intimately familiar with that post, and others similar. I was also kinda' the subject matter for one of them, 'cause I flipped my VJ5 fairly quickly... not as quickly as the one you're talking about, but I still took a couple shots across the bow for "not spending enough time with the instrument" before flipping it.

However, that's got nothing to do with your preferred setup vs the factory, which is purely a mechanical/fitting thing. Like Joe said, if you like it perfectly the way it ships, that's awesome. No problem. However, it will NOT stay that way forever, so at some point it's gonna' have to be adjusted... regardless if you also have to do adjustments initially to match your spec, which some of us do (like Joe and I, and I suspect many others as well).

What Carey was talking about was TONE... such as giving the bass some time to learn it's sound, work with the EQ on the bass and your amp, and make sure you aren't selling it short before you make a final judgment on whether it fits you or not. Maybe to a lesser extent, things like acclimating to the neck profile, but that's also got nothing to do with setup, since you can't change that. Completely different thing IMHO.

 

[Angus]

I hear you about the gushing, but given that all this is so SUBJECTIVE, and a matter of opinion, I think many if not most of us stay kind of quiet when we encounter someone gushing about a bass that didn't quite do it for us... that way we don't rain on the parades of those who are digging them, you know?

Isn't that exactly what you did that started the discussion? I won't really get in to the whole chance for innovation thing, because it doesn't seem worth it as you are coming from a totally different place than him. I think your perspective on it versus his is that from his perspective, he wants his dream bass. They'll make enough that you can get one too, if you dig the specs. You don't, which is perfectly fine. But you want something brand new on the market....for you. The burner is different enough from the original model that it is something new on the market, but since you aren't in to it it doesn't feel like anything new. Totally different situations, and not something that he should be chastised for. He did it for himself, not anyone else...which is why the whole idea of "signature instruments" is silly to me.

(And yet I own 4, sadly...but all totally out of spec from the original model!)

And yes (to you and Vic), the blend pot adds capacitance to the signal, but if it's already in an active circuit then a) you are never, ever going to notice it because of all the other effects in the circuit and b) they can do a no-load blend setup without much trouble. If they don't, it's their fault for designing their preamp poorly.

But since this revolved around passive setups, then the only thing you need to concern yourself with (when it comes to loss of high end) is your cable. It doesn't matter how short it is, you'll be losing more due to loading from the cable than in a blend pot setup.

 

[Tom7]

Isn't that exactly what you did that started the discussion? I won't really get in to the whole chance for innovation thing, because it doesn't seem worth it as you are coming from a totally different place than him. I think your perspective on it versus his is that from his perspective, he wants his dream bass. They'll make enough that you can get one too, if you dig the specs. You don't, which is perfectly fine. But you want something brand new on the market....for you. The burner is different enough from the original model that it is something new on the market, but since you aren't in to it it doesn't feel like anything new. Totally different situations, and not something that he should be chastised for. He did it for himself, not anyone else...which is why the whole idea of "signature instruments" is silly to me.

(And yet I own 4, sadly...but all totally out of spec from the original model!)

And yes (to you and Vic), the blend pot adds capacitance to the signal, but if it's already in an active circuit then a) you are never, ever going to notice it because of all the other effects in the circuit and b) they can do a no-load blend setup without much trouble. If they don't, it's their fault for designing their preamp poorly.

But since this revolved around passive setups, then the only thing you need to concern yourself with (when it comes to loss of high end) is your cable. It doesn't matter how short it is, you'll be losing more due to loading from the cable than in a blend pot setup.

The difference is I came to CLUB FBASS to talk frankly about it... not in Hadrien's thread. In other words, the frank talk here should not have offended anyone like it surely would there.

Good point both about the preamp and the cable... but in another way of thinking, those are just two more reasons to want volume / volume over master volume / blend.

And you are right about him wanting his dream bass, and this is it apparently.

One of the many cool things about this world, as opposed to say 1971, is that there are a lot of places for us to go for custom basses that are just what we want them to be. Of course, they may not cost $700, but if it means enough for us to have a certain set of specs, in time most of us can get them.

Mostly though, I'm curious how Ken Smith went from making fun of Hadrien and being ravingly anti-endorsements, to giving him a signature bass.

On the other hand, Ken Smith, all the time emphasizes that KSD and other basses with his name on them really aren't Ken Smith basses. This bass is the product of a master luthier in Japan... it just had heavy Smith input on the design, and after that sells with Smith's brand.

 

[Tom7]

Seriously... it is NOT hard to do. You should learn. You'll be blown away you waited so long. I can't tell you how great it is to basically ALWAYS have the bass set up EXACTLY the way you want, and FREE. I don't mean to take anything away from your local techs, but if it's purely mechanical (no actual "repair" to be done), you really should be doing it yourself. It's not rocket science at all.

I'm intimately familiar with that post, and others similar. I was also kinda' the subject matter for one of them, 'cause I flipped my VJ5 fairly quickly... not as quickly as the one you're talking about, but I still took a couple shots across the bow for "not spending enough time with the instrument" before flipping it.

However, that's got nothing to do with your preferred setup vs the factory, which is purely a mechanical/fitting thing. Like Joe said, if you like it perfectly the way it ships, that's awesome. No problem. However, it will NOT stay that way forever, so at some point it's gonna' have to be adjusted... regardless if you also have to do adjustments initially to match your spec, which some of us do (like Joe and I, and I suspect many others as well).

What Carey was talking about was TONE... such as giving the bass some time to learn it's sound, work with the EQ on the bass and your amp, and make sure you aren't selling it short before you make a final judgment on whether it fits you or not. Maybe to a lesser extent, things like acclimating to the neck profile, but that's also got nothing to do with setup, since you can't change that. Completely different thing IMHO.

I'm in a hurry so this will be quick but hopefully comprehensable.

My problem with setups starts with conflicting advice, and not knowing who to trust.

And I thought the setup subject was akin to the Nordstrand discussion because sometimes, this is how someone who is really good at their job, intended a bass to play and sound. IF that's the case, then I want to be a familiar with that as I am my preferred setup, then I can make a choice.

I don't mind having my basses play and sound differently; it's one of the main reasons I want multiple basses, you know?

So in both cases, (Carey's view on giving a bass a try, and giving the luthier's setup a try), I try to learn them enough to appreciate them, then make the change.

It's kind of like people who put salt on everything, even if they haven't tasted it first to know if it needs salt.

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

It's actually akin to buying a new car and never adjusting the mirrors, seat, or steering wheel. The way the car feels and drives won't matter if you don't have those functions set up to YOUR preferences to make YOU feel comfortable. And frankly, you can almost guarantee any bass being shipped will change at least a little in setup as it travels, so when you get it, it likely won't be exactly how the luthier sent it. If you know how to do your own setups and are experienced with it, then you already will know how a certain action will feel on a bass even if you haven't tried it yet.

 

[Vic]

And yes (to you and Vic), the blend pot adds capacitance to the signal, but if it's already in an active circuit then a) you are never, ever going to notice it because of all the other effects in the circuit and b)

Again, BY FAR, even with active basses, the blend circuit is still passive, and BEFORE the preamp, so it is still in effect, BUT, due to the short wire run and the nature of the buffering of the preamp at its input stage, it should be minimal.

they can do a no-load blend setup without much trouble. If they don't, it's their fault for designing their preamp poorly.

True, but it's rarely done because it's expensive, and as you said (and I agree), with the input buffer on the preamp minimizing loading issues, it's not a big deal. PLUS, if you want a passive bypass, you can NOT do an active blend. I definitely would not at all call it poor design. It's just a design choice, and to be honest, it makes sense, especially if you (again) want to ever have the ability to have a passive bypass.

But since this revolved around passive setups, then the only thing you need to concern yourself with (when it comes to loss of high end) is your cable. It doesn't matter how short it is, you'll be losing more due to loading from the cable than in a blend pot setup.

Actually, I think the electrical characteristics input stage of the amp is also very significant, and they vary a lot, as well.

Trust me on this. I've been well down this road many times.

 

[Vic]

My problem with setups starts with conflicting advice, and not knowing who to trust.

This is the WRONG mindset. Don't ask how you should set up your bass, ask how setups are done... what does what. ONLY YOU should decide how to set up YOUR bass. You just need to understand the mechanics of it so you can do so properly and get the results you want.

In short, don't ask for results, ask for the process, so you can determine your results as desired.

Tons of posts on this, probably tons of info on the web. Seriously, I can absolutely promise you that you can handle it. I absolutely guarantee it.

 

[flipper_gv]

Mostly though, I'm curious how Ken Smith went from making fun of Hadrien and being ravingly anti-endorsements, to giving him a signature bass.

On the other hand, Ken Smith, all the time emphasizes that KSD and other basses with his name on them really aren't Ken Smith basses. This bass is the product of a master luthier in Japan... it just had heavy Smith input on the design, and after that sells with Smith's brand.

From what I've read, Ken Smith wasn't making fun of Hadrien in a bad way, I think he would just have preferred to see him with a Smith. Soon after discovering Hadrien, Ken gave a Smith to him (a real one). Now, Ken does not do signature instruments, or other woods than the ones he's currently offering. That's one of the reasons Hadrien must have chosen the Burner option. Also, the guy LOVES his burner, and he's always seen with it. Maybe it's not the ultimate bass in the world, but he loves it, and he makes it sound like a million bucks. Also, the bass has Ken Smith single stacked coils with a custom Smith pre. That makes it a Ken Smith since no other basses can be bought new with Ken Smith p/u's and pre.

 

[bassment bn5]

Boys Boys Boys.
I am amazed at how this thread has changed in just 24 hours. I was on it last night and it was calm and placid. When I log on tonight, there's 5 pages of arguing about virtually nothing. It reminded me of an argument I had when I was a kid about whose Dad could beat whose Dad in a fight.

My own experience with Ken Smith is not how he is being portrayed in these posts. He was very accommodating and frankly, I found him just as personable as George. I'm not fussy about the shape of the body on Smith basses. I don't find their "squatness" appealing to the eye and not comfortable to play. I do however, find the body shape of the BN series both visually appealing and comfortable to play. I like the neck of the BN5 but not the VF5 which has a shallower feel due the radius difference.

So what does the above paragraph mean? NOTHING. It's just my personal opinion. For those of you who disagree with me - fine. But I won't change my mind despite what you say and I also won't waste time arguing back because I don't need you to see it my way either.

So let's try and not bicker. Rather let's look for constructive and informative things to say and let everyone be entitled to their opinions.

 

[Tom7]

It's actually akin to buying a new car and never adjusting the mirrors, seat, or steering wheel. The way the car feels and drives won't matter if you don't have those functions set up to YOUR preferences to make YOU feel comfortable. And frankly, you can almost guarantee any bass being shipped will change at least a little in setup as it travels, so when you get it, it likely won't be exactly how the luthier sent it. If you know how to do your own setups and are experienced with it, then you already will know how a certain action will feel on a bass even if you haven't tried it yet.

Yes, I agree about the climate and shipping affects, but that's not the thing I'm talking about.

I'm talking about lowering pickups and the other bigger changes that guys are talking about here.

And I never said I keep a bass at the setup it shipped at and sell it if it doesn't suit me. I say I give it a chance first before altering it, much like tasting a meal before I salt it.

 

[Tom7]

This is the WRONG mindset. Don't ask how you should set up your bass, ask how setups are done... what does what. ONLY YOU should decide how to set up YOUR bass. You just need to understand the mechanics of it so you can do so properly and get the results you want.

In short, don't ask for results, ask for the process, so you can determine your results as desired.

Tons of posts on this, probably tons of info on the web. Seriously, I can absolutely promise you that you can handle it. I absolutely guarantee it.

Makes sense. I'll take this on again then.

 

[Tom7]

From what I've read, Ken Smith wasn't making fun of Hadrien in a bad way, I think he would just have preferred to see him with a Smith. Soon after discovering Hadrien, Ken gave a Smith to him (a real one). Now, Ken does not do signature instruments, or other woods than the ones he's currently offering. That's one of the reasons Hadrien must have chosen the Burner option. Also, the guy LOVES his burner, and he's always seen with it. Maybe it's not the ultimate bass in the world, but he loves it, and he makes it sound like a million bucks. Also, the bass has Ken Smith single stacked coils with a custom Smith pre. That makes it a Ken Smith since no other basses can be bought new with Ken Smith p/u's and pre.

First, and I don't have a problem with this at all, but I do think it is incredibly weird how suddenly all these guys who haven't ever contributed in this discussion are suddenly appearing to debate this. How does this happen?

Anyway, I'm not the one that calls these bass not real Ken Smith basses, KEN SMITH is.

Frankly, I feel like you do. If he puts his name on it, it is his.

But time and again, including in chapter one of Club Fbass, Ken Smith himself has told us that KSD and other basses with his name on them aren't really HIS basses.

BTW, I certainly don't understand how you make fun of someone in a good way. Smith mocked Hardrian's playing ("does anyone know how to play a rest") and told him he doesn't actually have a Ken Smith bass.

Who here wants to be called out in front of countless other bass players by a legendary luthier for how he plays and the bass he owns?

I don't see your distinction at all.

 

[Vic]

Makes sense. I'll take this on again then.

You'll be very glad you did.

One tip I'll give you that may not be in some of the guides. If you're tightening the truss rod to flatten out the neck, put your knee in the back of the neck and pull back on the headstock JUST enough to make the strings visibly move slightly towards the fingerboard. This means you've put just enough pressure on the neck to defeat the string tension, and you won't be tightening the truss rod against string tension. If you're loosening the truss rod to add relief, just go ahead. No need for any knee tricks.

Some folks say loosen the strings to tighten the rod, which works, but then you have to allow more settle time. I like to keep the bass under typical tension as much as possible. Same reason some folks advise you to change strings one at a time.

When you're just getting started with this stuff, take small steps, and give the bass hours to "settle" after truss rod adjustments.

That should help some.

 

[Tom7]

... My own experience with Ken Smith is not how he is being portrayed in these posts. He was very accommodating and frankly, I found him just as personable as George.

You'll have accept the fact then that not everyone's experience with Smith is the same as yours, as indicated by the word "banned" which appears under Ken Smith's name now on his posts.

Or in other words, just because you experienced one thing, it doesn't mean we all did, so the right thing to do would be to allow us to share our experiences.

But you are 100% right that people should be civil in how they express their opinions.

I think, or at least I hope, it's calmed down a bit now.