Club Fbass (Part 4)

[Tom7]

You'll be very glad you did.

Oh, I've always wanted to, so I know I will.

 

[Angus]

Again, BY FAR, even with active basses, the blend circuit is still passive, and BEFORE the preamp, so it is still in effect, BUT, due to the short wire run and the nature of the buffering of the preamp at its input stage, it should be minimal.

Right. That's my point.

True, but it's rarely done because it's expensive, and as you said (and I agree), with the input buffer on the preamp minimizing loading issues, it's not a big deal. PLUS, if you want a passive bypass, you can NOT do an active blend. I definitely would not at all call it poor design. It's just a design choice, and to be honest, it makes sense, especially if you (again) want to ever have the ability to have a passive bypass.

It's really not very expensive at all, it's just that it's more to design and often is unnecessary because of the buffer. And you can design a circuit with both active and passive blend- you just set your passive switch to switch the input path to a passive blending setup. There is at least one preamp on the market that does this.

But yes, it's more expensive.

Honestly I never use a bypass, though. Passive has way too many downsides...for me.

Actually, I think the electrical characteristics input stage of the amp is also very significant, and they vary a lot, as well.

Most amps have input impedances set up for passive instruments, so it's at least minimized, but still is far from optimal, which is why I always put a buffer on board pre-cable. Generally when talking about capacitive loading on a passive instrument, you are talking about the cable and the input stage, and the buffer covers both.

Trust me on this. I've been well down this road many times.

Yep. I design rackmount preamps.

 

[Angus]

First, and I don't have a problem with this at all, but I do think it is incredibly weird how suddenly all these guys who haven't ever contributed in this discussion are suddenly appearing to debate this. How does this happen?

It's a public internet forum...for discussing things. Why is this surprising?

 

[Vic]

And you can design a circuit with both active and passive blend- you just set your passive switch to switch the input path to a passive blending setup. There is at least one preamp on the market that does this.

Yeah, I know it's electronically feasible, but you're saying there's actually one out there you specifically know about? Wow, first one I've heard of. Which one is that?

Yep. I design rackmount preamps.

Fair enough.

 

[narud]

From what I've read, Ken Smith wasn't making fun of Hadrien in a bad way, I think he would just have preferred to see him with a Smith. Soon after discovering Hadrien, Ken gave a Smith to him (a real one). Now, Ken does not do signature instruments, or other woods than the ones he's currently offering. That's one of the reasons Hadrien must have chosen the Burner option. Also, the guy LOVES his burner, and he's always seen with it. Maybe it's not the ultimate bass in the world, but he loves it, and he makes it sound like a million bucks. Also, the bass has Ken Smith single stacked coils with a custom Smith pre. That makes it a Ken Smith since no other basses can be bought new with Ken Smith p/u's and pre.

im pretty sure hajime at sleek elite gave him that smith. spacing was too wide to use though.

 

[Tom7]

Considering how today's discussion went, as keeper of this forum, I think it is only appropriate that I leave with you my final thoughts, a la Jerry Springer.

Parts 1 through 4 of Club Fbass contain discussion in black and white for all the world to see about many of the positive AND NEGATIVE aspects of Fbass ownership.

No one has tried to hide these things from perspective buyers; they can find them as readily as they found talkbass.

And our discussion history likewise reveals that this club is not an adoration thread. Look for yourself: we discuss "negative" things like finish problems, price of customization, pickup noise, etc.

Not only that, many if not most of us are members of other clubs as well. It's not like we are ignorant to other basses and are living in a club bubble as some are inferring.

Consequently, I doubt anyone here feels suddenly enlightened by the comments posted today.

There is a big difference between discussing negatives like the durability of finish or the noise of pickups, and jumping into this forum out of nowhere and declaring with more than a little hubris that Alain Caron signature basses "sound like butt."

In one instance, negatives are actually being sincerely discussed.

In the other instance, people are just trying to be provocative, and perhaps call attention to themselves with a new audience.

Likewise, since negatives have been always discussed here, it's not likely that any of the regulars here are impressed by a come-lately claiming to to stand on higher ground because they can handle discussing negatives.

Especially when in reality, they aren't discussing negatives so much as they are making waves.

But that doesn't mean they aren't welcome. I think today's discussion took an unexpected and certainly interesting turn today, and I honestly learned stuff, and I like days like that, I really do.

I just hope that tomorrow, we come to the table with a little more manners than we did today.

Just because this group organized to discuss Fbasses, and our feelings are more positive about them than negative, doesn't mean this group is in any way blind to their downsides, nor blind to the virtues of other basses. Nor does it mean we need to have our choices put down and made fun of to shake us out of our presumed stupor.

And there is a HUGE difference between "gushing about gear," and treating PEOPLE with respect. I'm not talking about kid gloves, I'm just talking civility and perhaps the golden rule.

So that's our show for tonight. Good night.

 

[Tom7]

It's a public internet forum...for discussing things. Why is this surprising?

Sigh. This conversation would be going better if you were trying as hard to understand others as you do trying to make others bend to your views.

 

[Angus]

What? Seriously? I was the one being judgmental? I think you ought to reread the whole conversation...it was a few of the "Club Fbass" thread regulars who were more insistent and defensive. I fail to see where I was trying to bend anything to "my" view- if anything, I was stating that you should view Hadrien's choice from his, rather than yours.

Spin it how you'd like, but it was just a couple people having a discussion. There really wasn't anything particularly outlandish about it.

This thread has always had a weird country club vibe.

 

[narud]

Considering how today's discussion went, as keeper of this forum, I think it is only appropriate that I leave with you my final thoughts, a la Jerry Springer.

Parts 1 through 4 of Club Fbass contain discussion in black and white for all the world to see about many of the positive AND NEGATIVE aspects of Fbass ownership.

No one has tried to hide these things from perspective buyers; they can find them as readily as they found talkbass.

And our discussion history likewise reveals that this club is not an adoration thread. Look for yourself: we discuss "negative" things like finish problems, price of customization, pickup noise, etc.

Not only that, many if not most of us are members of other clubs as well. It's not like we are ignorant to other basses and are living in a club bubble as some are inferring.

Consequently, I doubt anyone here feels suddenly enlightened by the comments posted today.

There is a big difference between discussing negatives like the durability of finish or the noise of pickups, and jumping into this forum out of nowhere and declaring with more than a little hubris that Alain Caron signature basses "sound like butt."

In one instance, negatives are actually being sincerely discussed.

In the other instance, people are just trying to be provocative, and perhaps call attention to themselves with a new audience.

Likewise, since negatives have been always discussed here, it's not likely that any of the regulars here are impressed by a come-lately claiming to to stand on higher ground because they can handle discussing negatives.

Especially when in reality, they aren't discussing negatives so much as they are making waves.

But that doesn't mean they aren't welcome. I think today's discussion took an unexpected and certainly interesting turn today, and I honestly learned stuff, and I like days like that, I really do.

I just hope that tomorrow, we come to the table with a little more manners than we did today.

Just because this group organized to discuss Fbasses, and our feelings are more positive about them than negative, doesn't mean this group is in any way blind to their downsides, nor blind to the virtues of other basses. Nor does it mean we need to have our choices put down and made fun of to shake us out of our presumed stupor.

And there is a HUGE difference between "gushing about gear," and treating PEOPLE with respect. I'm not talking about kid gloves, I'm just talking civility and perhaps the golden rule.

So that's our show for tonight. Good night.

im searching for the slaps forehead smiley

you got some responses after posting that one of the top names in bass has blown it by choosing a sig bass that balances poorly, has tight spacing, made overseas, based of a defunct model rather than doing something with f bass. not everyones going to agree with that

we've got luthiers saying theyre making basses that sound just like old fenders but in 5 string form. the clips ive heard and the vf5's i had played up to this point didnt live up to that claim imo. (havent played any of the 60's model) i posted some clips to show that they could and my positive experience with a new bass.

 

[chrisloe]

As a person who is trying to get back into this club by getting my old BN-6 back or buying a new one from Donovan, I can say you guys are missing 2 important points.

1) There has been way too few new pictures of Fbasses for me to drool over the last couple of days and

2) Tom, have you gotten that Beautiful Fretted AC-6 from Donvan yet? That thing is a unbelievable looking piece of art....Donovan, how is it?

Here is a pic of me some years back with my BN-6. Best playing bass I have ever had....Sold it to a friend of mine who sold it to Ryan L. and Back to my friend, and back to me and traded it to another friend. I am an idiot:scowl: Working on getting her home.

 

[thndrstk6]

Very nice blue BN6. Take some more pix when you get it back. Keep us informed on the new Fbass too!

 

[hairman]

Yeah .. and when you get it back .... KEEP IT!!! no matter what!

I would sell or trade almost any bass i own ... but NEVER one of my F-basses (well perhaps, in order to buy another F-bass ... but that's just a VERY small 'perhaps').

 

[Tom7]

What? Seriously? I was the one being judgmental? I think you ought to reread the whole conversation...it was a few of the "Club Fbass" thread regulars who were more insistent and defensive. I fail to see where I was trying to bend anything to "my" view- if anything, I was stating that you should view Hadrien's choice from his, rather than yours.

Spin it how you'd like, but it was just a couple people having a discussion. There really wasn't anything particularly outlandish about it.

This thread has always had a weird country club vibe.

Pardon me, but would you have any Grey Poupon?

 

[harrybosch]

Funny discussion. I was considering getting a VF5, and still may, but after hearing Joe's clips I'll definitely not be getting an ash/maple one. Those clips sound very little like a 70's jazz to me. It's not a bad tone but it's missing the "earthy" sort of tone the best jazz basses I've played/heard have. It's great to finally hear one of these played by someone that can play, though. The youtube video's of this bass for the most part are painful. That one guy who plays the Jaco tune is pretty good but I'd rather just hear him play without the backing track so I can really hear the bass.

 

[mstott25]

Boys Boys Boys.
...
It reminded me of an argument I had when I was a kid about whose Dad could beat whose Dad in a fight.

who ended up winning that argument by the way?

 

[Tom7]

im searching for the slaps forehead smiley

Yeah, I guess I left that out... care to slap my head for me?

you got some responses after posting that one of the top names in bass has blown it by choosing a sig bass that balances poorly, has tight spacing, made overseas, based of a defunct model rather than doing something with f bass. not everyones going to agree with that

True, and I never did expected everyone to agree.

For another perspective, I think of the signature basses I'm some familiar with, and how they stand out from standard models:

[] Marcus Miller - Preamp, bridge and pick guard not found on previous Fenders.

[] John Patitucci - Bass clef inlays, three way mids switch, layered woods, Yamaha brand (like Chic Corea endorses) ... all departures from his Ken Smith.

[] Roscoe Beck - Pickups and string spacing not found on previous Fenders.

[] Steve Bailey - Fender's first six string fretless, mute switch, ebony board,

[] Victor Wooten - Holly and ebony top in Yin Yang pattern with inlays, EMG P and J pickups, not normally found on other Fodera models.

[] Nathan East - Maple and alder body, maple and mahogany neck (with an ebony fingerboard), custom preamp,

[] Billy Sheenan - Stereo output, hipshot detuner standard, neck "woofer" pickup and pbass pickup, jumbo frets from 1 to 16 only, distinctive position markers.

[] Will Lee - Custom preamp with custom controls (including switches), 22 frets, bell cover, narrower nut (1.45 inches), only 4 knobs.

[] Alain Caron - Chambers, piezos, body style, position markers, woods.

[] Gary Willis - Beautiful radiused finger ramp standard, tapered neck, single Bart pickup.

[] Adam Nitti - [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]maple and purpleheart neck, custom inlays

[] Anthony Jackson - 36" scale length, chambered body, a single handmade humbucking pickup, passive

[] Matt Garrison - 33" scale length standard, finger ramp, Duncan dual coils in the 60s positions,
[/FONT]
I'm sure there are plenty of others that aren't coming to mind right now, but you get the idea.

Now this.

When I initially made the comment on Hadrien's signature bass, all he had revealed about it was that it was a revival of the now defunct Burner with a smaller headstock, and that it will be made by an excellent luthier in Japan.

I admit I'm more open to the idea of bringing back a retro bass for a signature model than I was at first, but because the specs aren't to my personal tastes, especially string spacing and balance, I know I'll not be rushing to be an early adopter.

However, yesterday Hadrien gave more detail, most notably that the pickups are proprietary and made specially for that bass. THIS is the kind of thing I was talking about earlier: doing something distinctive with your signature bass that sets it apart from others... otherwise the bass is relegated to mostly fan boy purchase status, you know?

we've got luthiers saying theyre making basses that sound just like old fenders but in 5 string form. the clips ive heard and the vf5's i had played up to this point didnt live up to that claim imo. (havent played any of the 60's model) i posted some clips to show that they could and my positive experience with a new bass.

And these are positive additions to the discussion that I'm glad you contributed.

Like I said earlier, I understand a little better now where you are coming from.

Anyway, hopefully we all understand each other a little better now.

 

[Tom7]

As a person who is trying to get back into this club by getting my old BN-6 back or buying a new one from Donovan, I can say you guys are missing 2 important points.

1) There has been way too few new pictures of Fbasses for me to drool over the last couple of days and

2) Tom, have you gotten that Beautiful Fretted AC-6 from Donvan yet? That thing is a unbelievable looking piece of art....Donovan, how is it?

Here is a pic of me some years back with my BN-6. Best playing bass I have ever had....Sold it to a friend of mine who sold it to Ryan L. and Back to my friend, and back to me and traded it to another friend. I am an idiot:scowl: Working on getting her home.

I love that color of blue and I do wish I had a dark blue bass somewhere in the herd. My wife's nick name is Blue, and so it's become my favorite color. Anyway, hope you make it back to the club soon.

As for your two points: they are both excellent ones.

Just to heap upon your longing for your long lost BN6, here's my latest photo of mine:

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

As for getting the fretted AC6, I've hit on a little snag which I hope to get sorted out this weekend. Actually, it's a big snag, but I'm confident it will be sorted out by this weekend... namely I was going to sell my Fodera Yin Yang to make room for the fretted AC6 when my wife commented that she'd rather I not sell it because she loves how it sounds.

Gulp!

 

[Tom7]

Funny discussion. I was considering getting a VF5, and still may, but after hearing Joe's clips I'll definitely not be getting an ash/maple one. Those clips sound very little like a 70's jazz to me. It's not a bad tone but it's missing the "earthy" sort of tone the best jazz basses I've played/heard have. It's great to finally hear one of these played by someone that can play, though. The youtube video's of this bass for the most part are painful. That one guy who plays the Jaco tune is pretty good but I'd rather just hear him play without the backing track so I can really hear the bass.

Joe really can play, can't he.

Edmond is the name of the guy doing the Jaco track. When I listen to that clip with my computer speakers, I feel like you do, but when I listen with my Bose headphones, the VF5 is much more distinguishable.

I've got my left hand in a cast, otherwise I would love to make a sample of my alder and rosewood VF5 for you to evaluate.

I have a 1976 Fender Jazz bass, and it keeps me "gas free" for the most part from wanting a VF5 in that configuration.

But I will say that even if I didn't have that bass, I'm sure I'd still prefer alder and rosewood VF5s. In all youtube clips and MP3s I've heard so far, the 60s VF5s are more appealing to me than the 70s, and I'm not sure why.

BTW, that's not meant as a knock to anyone's bass; I don't think they sound bad, they just don't do it for me like the alder and rosewood do for some reason. I'm very happy with my alder and rosewood version of the VF5, both tonally and for how it plays.

Be sure and check out the alder and rosewood VF5s if you can... they are so worth a careful look.

 

[RoboChrist]

Joe really can play, can't he.

Edmond is the name of the guy doing the Jaco track. When I listen to that clip with my computer speakers, I feel like you do, but when I listen with my Bose headphones, the VF5 is much more distinguishable.

I've got my left hand in a cast, otherwise I would love to make a sample of my alder and rosewood VF5 for you to evaluate.

I have a 1976 Fender Jazz bass, and it keeps me "gas free" for the most part from wanting a VF5 in that configuration.

But I will say that even if I didn't have that bass, I'm sure I'd still prefer alder and rosewood VF5s. In all youtube clips and MP3s I've heard so far, the 60s VF5s are more appealing to me than the 70s, and I'm not sure why.

BTW, that's not meant as a knock to anyone's bass; I don't think they sound bad, they just don't do it for me like the alder and rosewood do for some reason. I'm very happy with my alder and rosewood version of the VF5, both tonally and for how it plays.

Be sure and check out the alder and rosewood VF5s if you can... they are so worth a careful look.

Definitely the alder rosewood combo works like magic on a VF...

 

[narud]

Yeah, I guess I left that out... care to slap my head for me?

True, and I never did expected everyone to agree.

For another perspective, I think of the signature basses I'm some familiar with, and how they stand out from standard models:

[] Marcus Miller - Preamp, bridge and pick guard not found on previous Fenders.

[] John Patitucci - Bass clef inlays, three way mids switch, layered woods, Yamaha brand (like Chic Corea endorses) ... all departures from his Ken Smith.

[] Roscoe Beck - Pickups and string spacing not found on previous Fenders.

[] Steve Bailey - Fender's first six string fretless, mute switch, ebony board,

[] Victor Wooten - Holly and ebony top in Yin Yang pattern with inlays, EMG P and J pickups, not normally found on other Fodera models.

[] Nathan East - Maple and alder body, maple and mahogany neck (with an ebony fingerboard), custom preamp,

[] Billy Sheenan - Stereo output, hipshot detuner standard, neck "woofer" pickup and pbass pickup, jumbo frets from 1 to 16 only, distinctive position markers.

[] Will Lee - Custom preamp with custom controls (including switches), 22 frets, bell cover, narrower nut (1.45 inches), only 4 knobs.

[] Alain Caron - Chambers, piezos, body style, position markers, woods.

[] Gary Willis - Beautiful radiused finger ramp standard, tapered neck, single Bart pickup.

[] Adam Nitti - [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]maple and purpleheart neck, custom inlays

[] Anthony Jackson - 36" scale length, chambered body, a single handmade humbucking pickup, passive

[] Matt Garrison - 33" scale length standard, finger ramp, Duncan dual coils in the 60s positions,
[/FONT]
I'm sure there are plenty of others that aren't coming to mind right now, but you get the idea.

Now this.

When I initially made the comment on Hadrien's signature bass, all he had revealed about it was that it was a revival of the now defunct Burner with a smaller headstock, and that it will be made by an excellent luthier in Japan.

I admit I'm more open to the idea of bringing back a retro bass for a signature model than I was at first, but because the specs aren't to my personal tastes, especially string spacing and balance, I know I'll not be rushing to be an early adopter.

However, yesterday Hadrien gave more detail, most notably that the pickups are proprietary and made specially for that bass. THIS is the kind of thing I was talking about earlier: doing something distinctive with your signature bass that sets it apart from others... otherwise the bass is relegated to mostly fan boy purchase status, you know?

And these are positive additions to the discussion that I'm glad you contributed.

Like I said earlier, I understand a little better now where you are coming from.

Anyway, hopefully we all understand each other a little better now.

think about how long some of those guys had been working with builder before the sig model you see of theirs today and then look at how old had is.

the pickguard on marcus' bass was by rogers' own admission his inexperience at the time. the look became iconic though.

alain caron has been playing f basses since the late 70's. do you think his first bass had acoustic chambers and piezos?

willis' main bass for a long time was a pretty stock looking sr885 other than the pickup placement (i wish my old885 had the pickup spacing his had.)

garrison played a 35" scale imperial for years. his sig model pretty much an imperial with a 33" scale. nothing real groundbreaking.

the victor wooten sig was a pj monarch for forever until the yinyang came out.

its not like all these guys came out with something super different as their first sig bass.