Club Sadowsky!!!

[burk48237]

One other note on the Metros. I've never played a bad RV but I've had a few issues with some of the MV's I've played. OTOH my MV (NYC) is a warmer sounding bass then my RV (metro). If you like brighter sounding maple ash basses I have a feeling you would like an RV metro. Remember, the morado boards on the Metros are a lot brighter then Rosewood. My RV metro can be a very bright sounding bass. Now for some reason the UV metros in Ash Maple seem to pull it off.

 

[Baird6869]

My Metro 5er is of the same build quality as my NYC. I play both of them all the time and can honestly say that they are both excellent instruments and the fit, finish and playabilty are almost exactly the same on both. In fact, if I buy another Sadowsky, it would be a Metro as I don't think the extra $$$ for a NYC is justified (to me anyways) unless a crazy figured top is a requirement.

I have owned Laklands, Fenders, etc. and a Metro is almost always superior in quality when compared to any $1000-2500 bass IMO. The only bass I have played that seemed similar in quality to my Sadowskys (in the same price range) was a Roscoe.

Also, if a Metro is "mass produced", what would we consider a Fender? Even MIA Fenders are made by the thousand!

 

[Marlat]

Not to pick on Vic, but just for the purpose of clarifying what Metros are and are not, here is a quote from Roger about the Metros:

The Metro basses that go to the dealers are shipping straight from my shop in Japan. Obviously the ones I sell go through my shop. My guys at Sadowsky Tokyo are every bit as picky as I am and it would only make the bass more expensive if I had to run them through my shop first. Of all the Sadowsky Tokyo & Metro basses I have received, I have never had to tweak a single one. This is why I am so proud of my crew in Japan. This is truly a Sadowsky shop in every sense of the word.

Based on what Roger has said previously, the Metros have exactly the same production process as the NYC basses and the wood even comes from the US:

The wood is all from the US except for the Morado fingerboards which come from Bolivia. The reason the Metro's will be heavier than the NYC basses is because the bodies are not chambered.

Basically the real difference is the options (as Vic has pointed out), you get fancy tops, routed bodys, matching headstocks, left hand models, variable fingerboard materials and radius, d-tuners, Nordstrand pickups etc. However the production method is AFAIK the same. Its just conducted in a different location.

The biggest factor that enable me to reduce the cost on the Metros is that we produce specific models with no options other than color choice. There is no other place where I can get the quality of workmanship I get in Japan. I have been doing business there for 20 years and I have great respect for the Japanese work ethic and craftsmanship.

We all know how Sadowskys are built, ie by a team of builders who Roger has trained up both in NYC and Japan. I can't imagine there is anything inferior about the ability of the guys building in Japan's ability that would make the build quality of an NYC inherently better than Metros. As a thought experiment, what would happen if a "NYC" bass was built by one of the Japanese builders in the NYC shop. Would it be an NYC or a Metro?

 

[maconbass]

Like I said earlier, there are owners who prefer the tone of their Metro over their NYC. Because of that, should you conclude that NYC's are "hit and miss"? Certainly not. That just means that every instrument varies a bit (including NYC's) as does every players idea of what great tone is.

 

[burk48237]

I know Ken posted a picture earlier but I have a new adition. It's a MS5 NYC that I found on Ebay. I love it, I realize how much I missed my old MV5 when Ken brought over his Orange Machine. Anyway, it's light well balenced, plays like butta, the top is subtile and not real over the top, the birdseye board is cool. I do intend to slap a set of single coils in it when I get some spare cash. I still love my metro, but the weight was a real issue some times.

From the Sadowsky site, I believe this was AJ Browns old bass:

And my "fine pair"

 

[tradernick]

I'll try not to clog the thread too much more with my personal situation, but I need to comment on this whole question of 'hit and miss'. To me, the standard for Sadowskys is so high that 'hit and miss' takes on a different meaning. A 'miss' in Sadowsky terms might be a 'hit' in Fender terms, right? I haven't even plugged this bass into an amp yet. If/when I do, and if you asked me whether I would pay $1000 for it the way it is, I would undoubtedly say 'Sure!'. The problem is that the bar was set so high by the RV4 I played last year.

With regard to the idea that a $2150 bass can be expected to be excellent every time... I'm not sure. I don't think that threshold is quite high enough. I hate to sound like an old fogey. but $2150 ain't what it used to be. $4000 is more like the threshold for a 'bespoke' guitar. However, I am slightly surprised that this particular instrument managed to get out the door in the shape it's in (with the loose screw, possibly sketchy strings, intonation issues etc). The fact that its acoustic sound isn't what the other ones were... well, that's just bad luck for me.

I will say it again - one of the two main reasons I decided to buy one is that the RV4 I played was perfectly in tune - octaves in tune almost all the way up the neck.

I really feel that I shouldn't comment too much more until I see how they decide to deal with this.

 

[Vic]

Not to pick on Vic, but just for the purpose of clarifying what Metros are and are not, here is a quote from Roger about the Metros...

Thanks. I was actually looking for this info myself.

The only thing that's omitted is, I still believe the necks are different, and the Metros still do not have the graphite bars. Admittedly, that's not going to determine good/bad, but I still feel it's "better". Also, I trust Roger's statements of high quality in the Japan shop, but I guess I still find it hard to believe his shop in NYC doesn't still do even better.

Again, this is NOT me saying NYC's are good and Metros are bad. IT IS NOT. I just feel... still... that the NYC's are better instruments. If they are better "enough" to justify the price diff, that's totally subjective, and I readily accept that, for a lot of very happy Sadowsky owners, the answer is "no". The success of the product line proves that every day.

 

[KJung]

I'll try not to clog the thread too much more with my personal situation, but I need to comment on this whole question of 'hit and miss'. To me, the standard for Sadowskys is so high that 'hit and miss' takes on a different meaning. A 'miss' in Sadowsky terms might be a 'hit' in Fender terms, right? I haven't even plugged this bass into an amp yet. If/when I do, and if you asked me whether I would pay $1000 for it the way it is, I would undoubtedly say 'Sure!'. The problem is that the bar was set so high by the RV4 I played last year.

With regard to the idea that a $2150 bass can be expected to be excellent every time... I'm not sure. I don't think that threshold is quite high enough. I hate to sound like an old fogey. but $2150 ain't what it used to be. $4000 is more like the threshold for a 'bespoke' guitar. Howver, I am slightly surprised that this particular instrument managed to get out the door in the shape it's in (with the loose screw, possibly sketchy strings, intonation issues etc). The fact that its acoustic sound isn't what the other ones were... well, that's just bad luck for me.

I will say it again - one of the two main reasons I decided to buy one is that the RV4 I played was perfectly in tune - octaves in tune almost all the way up the neck.

I really feel that I shouldn't comment too much more until I see how they decide to deal with this.

Regarding perfectly in tune, this should not be an issue. That's what the adjustable bridge and strobe tuners are for. The frets on all basses are cut to a very specific formula. There should be absolutely no difference among various basses (much less within brand) regarding intonation.

That does not mean that the set-up and intonation might have been done better on the RV you played than your current one. However, a simple strobe driven intonation set-up will make both those basses identical.

If you main issue is intonation, you have no issue (not even IMO there... it's fact).

K

 

[tradernick]

Let's not go there. This could be another zillion post back and forth.

My only point above (and I think the general point that Vic is making) is that I had the same experience with a maple/ash Metro as the poster who was disappointed in his.

I think we all agree that this is an anomalous situation and that some people might have Metros that they prefer to their NYC basses. Having said that, it is somewhat reassuring for me to hear from a couple of guys who have had the same, albeit isolated experience with the Metros.

I await some contact from the shop - nothing yet. Rob mentioned to me that he would tell Roger to look out for my email so let's see what happens.

The worst part of this is that I can't convey to them what I am hearing and seeing. I'm not a 22-year old kid who needs the money back or doesn't like the way the finish looks. I couldn't care less about the finish, to be honest. If I did I would have 'fessed up and bought an NYC. It was somewhat depressing to me to pull the bass out of the case and hear a rattle in the headstock.

 

[tradernick]

If you main issue is intonation, you have no issue (not even IMO there... it's fact).

It is not. The main issues are the rattling screws, the nut which my tech says needs shaving, the fact that my tech says I need to change the strings immediately and most importantly the overall dead tone of the instrument compared to other RV4's I've played. Of course a set-up can be attempted and possibly this bass could be brought into tune.

I'm going to keep pointing out that

1. I am a huge fan of these instruments (the Metros, that is)

2. I believe until proven wrong that the guys in the shop will take care of this situation

3. The reputation that Roger & Co. have developed is not a fluke

4. In terms of what one can expect from these instruments, given the production techniques, I believe that the main difference between one shop and another is how they respond when the inevitable (and please note that word - inevitable) bass comes through that is not up to their standard.

I'm not sure you meant to imply that any bass guitar can be brought into perfect tune. That hasn't been my experience, but I'm not a luthier and it's been a long time since I owned instruments which I could not ask my tech to intonate to the point where they seem to me to be perfectly in tune.

 

[Nino Valenti]

Let's not go there. This could be another zillion post back and forth.

My only point above (and I think the general point that Vic is making) is that I had the same experience with a maple/ash Metro as the poster who was disappointed in his. I've also played several other maple/ash Metro's that for some reason had that 'clanky' quality to the tone, both acoustically and plugged in.

To be fair.... your miss can be someone elses hit and vice-a-versa.

The Metro that you love may have been tried and returned 2-3 before you had it.

 

[KJung]

It is not. The main issues are the rattling screws, the nut which my tech says needs shaving, the fact that my tech says I need to change the strings immediately and most importantly the overall dead tone of the instrument compared to other RV4's I've played. Of course a set-up can be attempted and possibly this bass could be brought into tune.

I'm not sure you meant to imply that any bass guitar can be brought into perfect tune. That hasn't been my experience, but I'm not a luthier and it's been a long time since I owned instruments which I could not ask my tech to intonate to the point where they seem to me to be perfectly in tune.

No, there will always be issues with perfect intonation with a fretted instrument. My point was, this does not vary by bass.

Changing strings immediately is exactly what I would do prior to anything else. If you have old strings on that bass (i.e., if it was sitting at a retailer for a bit or whatever), that can totally dull the tone of any bass, and also play hell on the intonation.

Regarding shaving the nut, that is a little bit of an art versus a science. Every tech has their own idea of nut height, and it can vary, as can approach to setting intonation.

Again, not minimizing your issues, but you should change the strings and set the intonation prior to evaluation IMO. Rattling screws, of course, is a different issue. It didn't seem to me that the tuners on the Metro's I played are the same as the NYC's.

 

[Nino Valenti]

I know Ken posted a picture earlier but I have a new adition. It's a MS5 NYC that I found on Ebay.

That's is a Standard 5. MS5 is a Metro.

 

[KJung]

To be fair.... your miss can be someone elses hit and vice-a-versa.

The Metro that you love may have been tried and returned 2-3 before you had it.

I hear you completely, and IMO, that was the case with the wonderful Skjold bass that I disliked. That was a point of fantastically made instruments just not fitting my tone goals or 'feel' requirements.

The Metro I had was a bad execution of a bass that I should have liked IMO (since I've just loved many Sadowsky's of the same spec). And you are right, I'm sure someone is loving it right now Everything is relative.

However, playing a bass that is perfect, like the Skjold in my case, that just didn't meet my tone goals is a very different thing from the executional issues that some of us have experienced.

And the Metro I was talking about as being so amazing... was

 

[tradernick]

Please note - I have received an email from Roger.

I have to run out the door right this minute, so I will post details later on, but let me say this. Roger has shown that everything everyone has said about him standing behind the product and wanting to make things right is as true as it can be.

I will post details later.

 

[burk48237]

I'll try not to clog the thread too much more with my personal situation, but I need to comment on this whole question of 'hit and miss'. To me, the standard for Sadowskys is so high that 'hit and miss' takes on a different meaning. A 'miss' in Sadowsky terms might be a 'hit' in Fender terms, right? I haven't even plugged this bass into an amp yet. If/when I do, and if you asked me whether I would pay $1000 for it the way it is, I would undoubtedly say 'Sure!'. The problem is that the bar was set so high by the RV4 I played last year.

With regard to the idea that a $2150 bass can be expected to be excellent every time... I'm not sure. I don't think that threshold is quite high enough. I hate to sound like an old fogey. but $2150 ain't what it used to be. $4000 is more like the threshold for a 'bespoke' guitar. Howver, I am slightly surprised that this particular instrument managed to get out the door in the shape it's in (with the loose screw, possibly sketchy strings, intonation issues etc). The fact that its acoustic sound isn't what the other ones were... well, that's just bad luck for me.

I will say it again - one of the two main reasons I decided to buy one is that the RV4 I played was perfectly in tune - octaves in tune almost all the way up the neck.

I really feel that I shouldn't comment too much more until I see how they decide to deal with this.

Tradernick, You don't list where your from. I know that in the midwest the last few days we've had some extremely unseasonably hot weather with temps into the 90's. It is very possible that with temperature changes cross country shipping that all of the issues with your bass occurred during shipping (even the rattle). Also not every shippping company handles instruments with the utmost in care. In MI we have a saying if you don't like the weather wait a minute. it WILL change. I still get a professional set-up a couple of times a year even though I find the neck to my Sadowskys more or as stable as several other "boutique" type instruments I've owned. I doubt very much it left the Shop that way, but sitting in truck for hours in Ninety degree heat or extremes in weather changes will move necks. They are made of wood after all. Also newer basses tend to move a bit more at first.

Two things bother me, you said you took it to your tech and he gave you a list of problems. Did he DO anything to it. I realize it might be frustrating to need a set up out of the box, but weather extremes could easily cause that. OTOH Sadoowsky does have a 7 day guarantee. But I would set the intonation and do a quickie set up, plug it in and see if it's satisfactory first. Second, Have you plugged it in yet? While I realize the acoustic qualities of an electric bass mean something, the room your in when your playing that unplugged bass can have a huge bearing on that. If the D string is the only issue I'm sure Roger would gladly send you another one.

 

[Nino Valenti]

I hear you completely, and IMO, that was the case with the wonderful Skjold bass that I disliked. That was a point of fantastically made instruments just not fitting my tone goals or 'feel' requirements.

The Metro I had was a bad execution of a bass that I should have liked IMO (since I've just loved many Sadowsky's of the same spec). And you are right, I'm sure someone is loving it right now Everything is relative.

However, playing a bass that is perfect, like the Skjold in my case, that just didn't meet my tone goals is a very different thing from the executional issues that some of us have experienced.

And the Metro I was talking about as being so amazing... was

And the person that buys the Skjold may think that the bass has the voice of God coming from it. LOL.

I've played thousands of Sadowsky basses. Hundreds of the same model with the same p/u, preamp, strings and through the same amp. Wood is wood. Same wood doesn't always sound the same.

People have come in and tried different basses and Customer 1 will love one bass and dislike others and Customer 2 will like another bass and dislike the bass that customer 1 loved.

IMO, "Hit and miss" is not a term that should be for tone. The quality of Sadowsky basses is, IMO Hit.I can't speak for the bass that tradernick bought because I have not played it.

 

[KJung]

And the person that buys the Skjold may think that the bass has the voice of God coming from it. LOL.

You are completely missing my point Liking and disliking is an arbitrary tone preference. Poor fit and finish, dead spots, rattles, uneven string to string balance, etc. are execution issues. Those are two very different things.

 

[Craig Garfinkel]

I haven't even plugged this bass into an amp yet. If/when I do...

Um, not to be a wiseguy...but you really need to do that, dontcha think? Would you really send back an electric bass guitar you've never played through your rig?

 

[tradernick]

Um, not to be a wiseguy...but you really need to do that, dontcha think? Would you really send back an electric bass guitar you've never played through your rig?

lol... no, that's not a wise guy thing to say. Of course I'll be plugging it in and playing it a lot tonight. Then I'll take it back to my tech and spend some time with him and talk it over. Then I'll make a decision. My main moment of pain was when I A/B'd this bass with my main players acoustically. That and the rattle I heard.

I really really have to go right now so I'll look over the other posts when I get back. Like I said, Roger has emailed me and all is well, I can do whatever I want.