This is true, but a substandard instrument, or even a great instrument that doesn't fit you, can still prevent you from being able to realize that tone. It's all about the entire chain, because the weakest link...
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On the tone, this is one of the reasons why the NYC's cost more. The same careful pre-manufacturing wood selection is something that the Metros aren't subject to, and as such, suffer the same downfalls of any other production instrument. Some will be great, others, not so great. Also, the necks don't have the graphite rods, which also improves tone. This isn't to say there's no such thing as a fantastic Metro, because there are. They're just not ALL that way.
I posted here because I wanted some honest feedback, even if it's critical of my own statements or claims. This post is helpful. You know what, I bet there are even the rare NYC that doesn't come off the bench at that highest level (although much less likely).
My tech was actually unaware that the Metro was MIJ, and asked me about it. He then told me basically what you said, that the production methods which produced this bass were not the same as the other Sads he had seen, and it became clear that he had only seen NYC basses up until this point. I understand that this doesn't mean Metros are bad, they're just not NYCs.
Yeah, I guess that's the way it will probably go. Re: the strings, I bought a set on a whim while surfing around the site (actually picked out a Sad T-Shirt first). I tried them on my Jazz and I felt about the same as you do. I'm an RS66LD guy for the past 25 years so it's kind of hard to change at this point.
I guess I will have to wait to see how they deal with this. I'm not stupid enough to believe that one event like this means anything about the maker. What matters is how they respond when things inevitably happen. Everyone has told me that they will be trying really hard to take care of me so I guess we'll see. Not sure what they can really do at this point. This involves shipping it back to them (expensive) then trying to fix it then shipping it up here again (expensive) then I try it again and what happens if it stil isn't right?
I sent an email to Roger tonight. Let's see what happens tomorrow.
Well, typically, it's totally your "no-fault" prerogative if you choose to simply not deal with this at all and just return it for a refund or exchange it for another instrument without trying to figure anything out. I'd even ask about having them cover return shipment as a "defect" issue if possible.
Bottom line is, you paid for the magic, you didn't get it, that's not your fault, and you seem to have done all the sensible things to make sure you're not being unreasonable.
This is what I hope to be able to convey to them. My tech is a pretty austere guy and doesn't really say much about anything that doesn't need saying. He openly stated that he is a big fan of Sadowsky. If he thought I was being too picky or unreasonable, he would tell me in a heartbeat (in his way of course). He has no problem telling me my assumptions are wrong. The two biggest problems add up to a valid reason to ask them to take care of this situation - the sound of the body acoustically and the fact that there seem to be dead strings on it and that there's a screw loose somewhere on the headstock. For whatever reason, this one slipped through the cracks.
Nice grab, Vic!!
Ok, so I got sick and f'n tired of Ken's ravings about his ash/maple JJ5, so I'm "joining" the club "again" with the bass below. Should be here the end of this week or early next. I'm pretty stoked.
Nothin' special about this one other than it's an NYC Sadowsky, but that's what I was after, so it should be good.
I may still do something new for early/mid '09 delivery, but we'll see how this works out first.
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No need.
Rather than go point by point, let me just say these things...
If you aren't happy with the bass, like Craig says, call the shop, and if necessary, return it. That's what the eval period is for, and it's true that Roger doesn't want anyone to be unhappy with their instrument.
On the tone, this is one of the reasons why the NYC's cost more. The same careful pre-manufacturing wood selection is something that the Metros aren't subject to, and as such, suffer the same downfalls of any other production instrument. Some will be great, others, not so great. Also, the necks don't have the graphite rods, which also improves tone. This isn't to say there's no such thing as a fantastic Metro, because there are. They're just not ALL that way.
That said, it sure sounds like this one has some particularly significant issues, and it should probably end up back at Roger's shop to be analyzed.
IMHO, while they're not my all-time faves, I do like Sadowsky strings. I have great results with them on my NYC 24F-5. FWIW.
I'm also not surprised at how disappointed you are. You're justified in feeling that way. Your experience should have been completely different.
I have one piece of advice... do NOT let this experience sour you entirely to Sadowsky instruments. Trust me, if you get a more typically great one, it'll be totally worth it, just as you were, and should have been, expecting this time.
+1 all the way. I absolutely LOVE my NYC non-routed MV5... LOVE it. However, prior to purchasing that bass, I ordered a Metro with the same spec. I got it, played it for a while, and hated it. It sounded clanky acoustically, the string balance was somewhat uneven, interestingly, the electronics were quite noisy in A/Bing with my other NYC RV5, and in general it just didn't feel right at all.
I've played some Metro's that were every bit as good as the NYC models, and others that quite frankly were not very good.
I would HIGHLY recommend returning the bass you have, and like Vic says, don't let the experience tarnish your feeling towards Sadowsky in general.
I guess I'll put my flame suit on now, but, IN GENERAL, the NYC's just kill and the Metro's are more 'hit and miss'. I guess that makes sense, or why spend the additional money for the NYC (especially in the basic spec that Vic and I have).
IMO and IME.
Just Thumpin'
Commercial User
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My prediction (based on my personal experience with Sadowsky)...your WILL hear from the shop today. They WILL do everything possible to make you happy and you WILL end up with a bass you love (even if it is not the one you currently have). They are first class all the way and in every way....
Well, I hope you're wrong.
As cheap as they are comparing to the NYC models, the Metro line is not low-priced by any means.
I would expect any bass above 2K to be free of flaws. "Hit & miss" should not be present in this price range. This would be OK with a 1K bass, maybe.
That said, I really love my MV4. It sounds great and feels the same. The workmanship is top notch, and it's very light as well. There is no reason for me to replace it with a NYC of the same model. Maybe change to singles some day...
I again have played a number of Metro's that are fantastic, and with the 'no questions asked' return policy, there is very little risk. If you get one that doesn't 'live up to the price point', you just send it back.
I understand and agree to what you say.
Still, I want to believe that tradernick's case here is an exception and not a natural/acceptable result of a lower quality production line.
Forget about the NYC line for a moment (as hard as that might be...). When I order a $2150 (and up) bass I don't want to feel like gambling.
The return policy is great and it's there because of the confidence Roger Sadowsy has in his basses, both lines.
+1 The Metro's are not mass produced instruments like Fender's and, from most of what I've read, are in the same quality class as the NYC's but without the fancy tops, routing, etc. I've noticed some tber's here, who own both a NYC and Metro, prefer the tone of their Metro so it goes both ways.
I have to carefully back Ken up on this subthread.
Like it or not, the Metros ARE production basses... just like the Lakland Skyline series... VERY much like them. Just because they aren't produced in the same numbers as a Fender doesn't make this not so.
I've played several Metros and NYC's at this point. I've never picked up an NYC and not been thoroughly impressed with it. I can't say the same of the Metros. I HAVE played some that I did think that of, but it definitely was not all of them.
We might be getting into splitting hairs on exactly what "production" really means, but at least IME, with the Metros, it DOES mean the "usual" thing regarding "hit and miss" because Roger and his shop, like it or not, has less to do with the process from start to finish on these. It's the reason why they cost like $1000 less than the NYC's. That said, I will say I believe they are more hit than miss, tho.
In other words, there is a reason for the extra cost beyond the ability to select coffee table tops.
You can call me a nerd, snob, or elitist if you want, but I've come to find and firmly believe that wood selection is CRITICAL to an instrument, even an electric one, if it's going to have "the stuff", and the Metros do not enjoy the same wood selection benefits the NYC's do. Even if the final setup is stellar, you can't "fix" the wood. It is what it is.
Also, the Metros don't have the updated neck in them. They don't have the graphite bars. IMHO, this makes a tangible difference, and improvement. Again, not to say you can't have a great neck without, but IMHO they're better with them.
Here's the thing... I don't want to come off as slamming the Metros, because I have played some really great ones. I just don't believe, at least IME, the only diff between all Metros and NYC's is strictly cosmetic except for the graphite bars in the necks.
Disclaimer: I know I have a USA MTD in my avatar, and have other high end basses including a couple NYC Sadowskys at this point, BUT, before anyone brands me as snooty or even worse, Metro-prejudiced, keep in mind I also have, and enjoy playing, a straight up Fender P, J, and Deluxe P5. So it doesn't have to be a coffee table to impress me.
Also... IMHO!
Like it or not, the Metros ARE production basses... just like the Lakland Skyline series... VERY much like them. Just because they aren't produced in the same numbers as a Fender doesn't make this not so.
I've played several Metros and NYC's at this point. I've never picked up an NYC and not been thoroughly impressed with it. I can't say the same of the Metros. I HAVE played some that I did think that of, but it definitely was not all of them.
We might be getting into splitting hairs on exactly what "production" really means, but at least IME, with the Metros, it DOES mean the "usual" thing regarding "hit and miss" because Roger and his shop, like it or not, has less to do with the process from start to finish on these. It's the reason why they cost like $1000 less than the NYC's. That said, I will say I believe they are more hit than miss, tho.
In other words, there is a reason for the extra cost beyond the ability to select coffee table tops.
You can call me a nerd, snob, or elitist if you want, but I've come to find and firmly believe that wood selection is CRITICAL to an instrument, even an electric one, if it's going to have "the stuff", and the Metros do not enjoy the same wood selection benefits the NYC's do. Even if the final setup is stellar, you can't "fix" the wood. It is what it is.
Also, the Metros don't have the updated neck in them. They don't have the graphite bars. IMHO, this makes a tangible difference, and improvement. Again, not to say you can't have a great neck without, but IMHO they're better with them.
Here's the thing... I don't want to come off as slamming the Metros, because I have played some really great ones. I just don't believe, at least IME, the only diff between all Metros and NYC's is strictly cosmetic except for the graphite bars in the necks.
Disclaimer: I know I have a USA MTD in my avatar, and have other high end basses including a couple NYC Sadowskys at this point, BUT, before anyone brands me as snooty or even worse, Metro-prejudiced, keep in mind I also have, and enjoy playing, a straight up Fender P, J, and Deluxe P5. So it doesn't have to be a coffee table to impress me.
Also... IMHO!
- Aug 25, 2000
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I'm not trying to be nit-picky, by I will pick at one particular nit. I wouldn't personally ever use the term "hit or miss" in regards to the Metros. In my personal experience every Metro I've played (probably 10-15) and every one I've owned (2) have been unqualified "hits". In all the posts I can recall here at TB I can think of maybe two that were what I'd say were described as complete "misses" (including Rick's). "Hit or miss" implies you don't really know what you're going to get, and IMO that doesn't come close to applying to the Metros. Again I'm picking a nit, and I'm sure that wasn't KJUng's implication and his Sadowsky love cred is unimpeachable. 
Also remember that Rick's disappointment is amplified by the love he felt for the Metro he played and let get away. The sound of that particular bass was what he had in his head, and no two basses sound alike, even with the same specs.
Quality issues are a different story, and it goes without saying that Roger will be all over that.
But any bass can be a "hit" or a "miss" in an individual player's hands, and that's exactly why Sadowsky has the 7 day return policy. People who custom order $4000+ NYCs built to their exact specs have the same courtesy, and they do on occasion take advantage. I am fortunate to have the gorgeous and killer tone beast of an NYC that I currently possess because the previous owner wasn't in love.
Basses are like women. Wait... no they're not. Women cost way more and you can't send them back after 7 days for just the cost of shipping.
Did I just type that out loud?
Also remember that Rick's disappointment is amplified by the love he felt for the Metro he played and let get away. The sound of that particular bass was what he had in his head, and no two basses sound alike, even with the same specs.
Quality issues are a different story, and it goes without saying that Roger will be all over that.
But any bass can be a "hit" or a "miss" in an individual player's hands, and that's exactly why Sadowsky has the 7 day return policy. People who custom order $4000+ NYCs built to their exact specs have the same courtesy, and they do on occasion take advantage. I am fortunate to have the gorgeous and killer tone beast of an NYC that I currently possess because the previous owner wasn't in love.
Basses are like women. Wait... no they're not. Women cost way more and you can't send them back after 7 days for just the cost of shipping.
Did I just type that out loud?
Well, I'm also just now guilty of using that phrase, and I tried to qualify it, but just in case it wasn't strong enough, I definitely don't mean to make it sound like one should expect high purchase risk or low hit rate... in fact, the opposite. I'd expect a low risk (very high "hit" rate).
I'd bet money on it.
LOL!!!Basses are like women. Wait... no they're not. Women cost way more and you can't send them back after 7 days for just the cost of shipping.
Did I just type that out loud?
Hey, what's your significant other's email address? I have this captured now, just need to know where to send it.
IIRC Metros are produced in exactly the same way as the NYC basses, only in Roger's shop in Japan. To call Metros production basses would imply that his NYC basses are also production basses since the same process is used. It looks like staffing numbers are roughly the same too:
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Yes, there are tangible differences in terms of the custom tops, graphite necks, routed bodies, but Metros are no more a production bass than the NYC. I can't see how anyone could stretch that term to pick up one and not include the other.
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Yes, there are tangible differences in terms of the custom tops, graphite necks, routed bodies, but Metros are no more a production bass than the NYC. I can't see how anyone could stretch that term to pick up one and not include the other.
- Aug 25, 2000
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LOL!!!
Hey, what's your significant other's email address? I have this captured now, just need to know where to send it.
No problem there Vic...we just celebrated our 9th anniversary, so she knows she's made it way past any possibility of a return.
All warranties have expired too, so even if she suddenly develops quality issues, she's a keeper.
Anybody need to borrow this shovel?
Let's not go there. This could be another zillion post back and forth.
My only point above (and I think the general point that Vic is making) is that I had the same experience with a maple/ash Metro as the poster who was disappointed in his. I've also played several other maple/ash Metro's that for some reason had that 'clanky' quality to the tone, both acoustically and plugged in. I wouldn't have even brought it up other than to let that poster no that it happens sometime, and with the wonderful return policy, there should be no problem in either exchanging that particular bass for another one, or just getting his money back.
The best Sadowsky I ever played was a Metro RV4... heavy, ballsy, beautiful. I've played a bunch I didn't like at all. I LOVE my two NYC's. Not sure if there is a bigger point to be made other than I experienced the same thing the disappointed poster did with my Metro MV5
You raise a good point, but I also agree with Ken, let's not get into splitting hairs on what that term means.
Ken's right... I was mainly just trying to get at the fact that, at least IME, all NYC's I've played have been great, but not all the Metros. I'm sure many are... maybe the vast majority, just not all. Admittedly, the ones I've played are a small percentage overall, so take that for whatever it's worth... even if it's nothing.
Ken, I was really responding to this, I didnt see whether you called them "production" basses or not, and I am sure Roger will jump in at some point on using this moniker:
However this is just incorrect. Here's something from the Lakland website:
Lakland Website said:
The process by which Skylines are made and Metros are made is very different. My only point was that if you call the Metro process production, then you must also acknowledge that the NYC process is also creating "production" basses, as they are basically the same process in different locations.
FWIW I don't own any Metros, just saying this based on what Roger has said in the past. I don't think its in the Sadowsky clubs interest to be spreading incorrect information to potential fanatics!
Ok, I knew they were completely built over there (unlike the Skylines where a lot more of the work was done here), so maybe I was too strong on that analogy, but I think the "final setup" is still done at the NYC shop, isn't it? Thing is, this actually goes more to my point about Roger's shop having less to do with the Metro line, especially if they don't even do final setup at his shop, and why the difference, at least IME, is very real, which is really all I'm getting at.
Agreed. It was a bad term to use, but I stand by my experiences. I've had quantitatively better experiences overall with NYC's than Metros.
