Club Sadowsky!!!

[Vic]

@bucephylus and @Fuzzbass,
Admittedly, I skimmed a bit, but here's my additional thoughts...

Scientific data on tonal effects due to normal wear and tear over time; actually, there is scientific data on this, including the effects on wood. Yamaha had some nice info on this, implemented a "feature" (process) based on it, but IMHO way overpriced, so it didn't go anywhere. Lots of other scientific stuff on pickup changes over time, how to stress new pickups or wind new to mimic that etc., by many vendors.

I'm also not a fan of refinishing old instruments, and would always wait until it's unavoidably necessary even to re-fret. I personally believe preserving as much of the original as absolutely possible is important... not only for valuation, but also the playing experience and tone.

IMHO

 

[ElMon]

Unscientific, anecdotal addition to the relicing discussion ...

I was still working MI Retail when those Roadworn Fenders came out. Small shop I was working for turned out about 20 of them (3 J's, 6 P's and and then some of those short, twangly-sounding things called 'strats') over a year period. At the time we had a lot of custom shop Fenders and local guys doing consignment on their vintage gear.

Every single one of those relic'd Fenders consistently beat-out the other instruments in the shop. They were more resonant/open-sounding, and at the time we were all sold on the relicing being a contributing factor.

As it is, the finish I have on my mean, seafoam-green machine looks the same as it did when I got it in 2012, and I've been gigging the pajeebus out of it.

Sometimes I pine for this, but with a b-string and a not-as-cool bass player manning the fort:

 

[BigBigGuy44]

Regardless of age or aesthetics, 9 out of 10 scientists agree Sadowsky is the greatest. The opposing view never played one.

 

[Vic]

we need more expanded "like" options... or at least an LOL option.

 

[bucephylus]

Regardless of age or aesthetics, 9 out of 10 scientists agree Sadowsky is the greatest. The opposing view never played one.

QED

 

[cxcxcx]

Been playing some gigs with this guy:

Jimmy Paxson - Wikipedia

View attachment 3746668


He has such a huge sound on-stage, in a loud mix with a screaming-loud guitar player and a keyboard player rocking B3 sounds, and I can not imagine another bass in my arsenal. VTC on, P Pickup dimed ... pure roots blues bliss.

The hi-fi, polite sound of that MTD would be absolutely buried on this gig. Every bit of 'you need to learn to master the EQ' hyperbole would just fall flat (pun intended).

Roger achieved his goal in this regard: give working stiffs a fighting chance on a loud gig. Only consideration I ever have is on that blend knob and with the VTC.

If Uncle Will’s great sound on Letterman was any measure, a Sadowsky seems designed to work well with loud drummers and B-3 players. Anton Fig hits hard and Paul Shaffer isn't afraid to work that volume pedal. They aren’t lightweights. I wouldn’t dream of using any other bass on a job like the one you’re describing. It’s not even like a Sadowsky needs radical, unnatural sounding EQ to get heard, either - it just works.

 

[Todd Larson]

(image-heavy post) I also like my vintage Fenders with naturally occurring mojo. This one is a '64 I acquired in '89. It was pretty much in this condition when I bought it. I'm doing the best I can to keep my 2019 NYC pristine, while playing as much as possible. Gotta say, the Fenders are staying at home these days.

 

[Vic]

This one is a '64 I acquired in '89...

DROOLING!!! nice!!

 

[Fuzzbass]

Scientific data on tonal effects due to normal wear and tear over time; actually, there is scientific data on this, including the effects on wood. Yamaha had some nice info on this

It wouldn't surprise me a bit if scientific instruments could measure the change in vibration of a piece of wood after being subject to vibration. Here's the catch: that data is irrelevant if it isn't discernable by the human ear.

F'r instance, if we take a P-bass and do the usual PJ conversion -- I can see how that small rout could result in a difference in vibration that could show up on a high-tech scope in a laboratory setting, but I haven't heard one person say that a PJ conversion altered the acoustic tone of the bass.

And then we get into value judgments. After their unscientific A/B tests, the TimbreTech "experts" unanimously agreed that tone improved... funny how that worked out. Why couldn't tone also degrade?

So, what was the conclusion of the Yamaha data, anyway? I won't be surprised if it was, "our instruments detected a change of vibration". If the claim also included "humans agreed that tone improved afterward", well, they'd better have statistically significant double-blind studies to say so.

Speaking of double-blind studies, there's this -- the headline says it all:
Violinists can’t tell the difference between Stradivarius violins and new ones

^^^That isn't the end of the debate. Point is: unlike the overwhelming majority of tonal claims, the violin experiment has scientific weight behind it.


P.S. From the same article -- I am so glad I don't run with oenophiles:
"study after study has shown that expensive wines taste the same as cheap plonk when you test people under double-blind conditions"

 

[Vic]

...Here's the catch: that data is irrelevant if it isn't discernable by the human ear...

exactly. and i believe this is why it wasn't a raging success.

So, what was the conclusion of the Yamaha data, anyway?

to their credit, they TRIED to take as much subjectivity out of it and focused on measuring resonance and response in a pretty clinical environment. It was actually fairly interesting... BUT... at the end of the day, way too much subjective stuff... including psychosomatic element to really be 100% assignable, at least IMHO. I'm not surprised the market ended up being like... "kinda' cool, but I'll keep looking for my soulmate on the actual vintage market".

They had two technologies based on their research. A.R.E. and I.R.A. Below is the info from their website...

Yamaha - United States Research and Development

 

[Dave Hill]

I have a “Relic” switch on my preamp.

 

[Joeykun]

I don’t get relics. I could never understand why someone would by a brand new bass that looked like it went to hell and back like this Nash Heavy Relic P??

 

[phillipkregg]

I don’t get relics. I could never understand why someone would by a brand new bass that looked like it went to hell and back like this Nash Heavy Relic P??
View attachment 3747500

Call me a weirdo, but I really dig this

I love both relic'd and non-relic'd basses. I've got a beautiful NYC Satin Sadowsky - with no relic of course - and 2 Fender Custom Shop P basses with various levels of relic'ing.

But I will say the Journeyman Relic on the Blue '59 P bass looks way more realistic.

 

[Vic]

I have a “Relic” switch on my preamp.

you mean one that crackles every time you use it and doesn't always work? LOL!!

 

[Fuzzbass]

I don’t get relics. I could never understand why someone would by a brand new bass that looked like it went to hell and back like this Nash Heavy Relic P??
View attachment 3747500

Short answer: not sure there's anything to understand except you don't care for the well-worn look. (And for the record, I don't care for that particular Nash). But you're curious, so here goes:

Back in the early 80's I wasn't happy with new/recent Fender instruments: they were heavy, which was in vogue back then, and let's just say that quality was inconsistent. My budget was low, so I spent "only" $450 on a very well-worn transition Precision bass - neck stamp was December 1964. Newer-looking pre-CBSes were way more expensive, and let's not talk about what these basses cost right now. I wasn't crazy that it was so well-worn... but here's what mattered: it was feather-light, resonant, played like a dream, sounded amazing acoustically and amplified. "C" width neck, Brazilian board. With a bass that sweet, I didn't just accept the wear and tear, I found beauty in it. That may have started with the neck: grungy as hell, but silky smooth.

This isn't rose-colored nostalgia. My guitarist brother currently owns this bass and keeps it in his studio (I decided I no longer wanted to bring it to gigs). I still play it regularly. It's still a sweetie. I still love the look.

If I ever wanted to gig a bass similar to this, I sure as heck wouldn't buy a genuine 1964 P-bass: too expensive, and essentially irreplaceable. It would only make sense to buy a Relic. As for the argument "well, why bother with wear and tear at all, just go new?" That's simply a matter of taste, end of story.

 

[Robal]

It wouldn't surprise me a bit if scientific instruments could measure the change in vibration of a piece of wood after being subject to vibration. Here's the catch: that data is irrelevant if it isn't discernable by the human ear. . . . And then we get into value judgments. After their unscientific A/B tests, the TimbreTech "experts" unanimously agreed that tone improved... funny how that worked out. Why couldn't tone also degrade?

Aren't these statements a bit inconsistent? You say measurable change in vibration of wood instruments subjected to vibration is irrelevant if it can't be heard by the human ear, and then you summarily dismiss TimbreTech proponents who claimed they in fact heard and agreed that the tone of vibrated wood instruments improved. Not sure what "funny how that worked out" means.

Patent Images

 

[bucephylus]

...Back in the early 80's I wasn't happy with new/recent Fender instruments: they were heavy, which was in vogue back then, and let's just say that quality was inconsistent. My budget was low, so I spent "only" $450 on a very well-worn transition Precision bass - neck stamp was December 1964. Newer-looking pre-CBSes were way more expensive, and let's not talk about what these basses cost right now. I wasn't crazy that it was so well-worn... but here's what mattered: it was feather-light, resonant, played like a dream, sounded amazing acoustically and amplified...

Could be that it’s the old tale of the three blind folks trying to describe the elephant...

On the one hand, you seem to be broadly dismissive of the materials of construction of a bass guitar having an effect on the playing qualities of the instrument; yet, on the other you are praising specific instruments for their playing characteristics.

Whether or not we can predictably explain preferred playing characteristics as the result of the specific materials of construction; it is a simple fact that the desirable playing characteristics in a given instrument don’t happen by magic. There is a direct cause and effect at work. The specific pieces of wood used in the construction absolutely lead to the end result.

Roger and other highly skilled luthiers, such as Mike Tobias, do their level best to build their instruments with materials selected to produce intended results. Two things are true. Wood structure is so complicated that analysis of individual pieces of wood is insufficient to create any kind of predictive model; and the resulting instruments are not always exactly what was intended. Reality is that there is a mixture of art and science/engineering in play.

I actually think that is kind of nice.

My position in the “tone wood debate” is that the materials of construction, including the specific pieces of wood used to build an individual instrument, are critically important in the final instrument qualities. But, we don’t have sufficient information to make that a predictive procedure. So, “tone wood” matters; but we can’t control it in a completely predictive way. Which is where the luthiery expertise becomes important.

Which is one reason Roger is special.

 

[puff father]

So, I did this thing...

Now they're perfect!
Ash/morado and alder/maple.

 

[scubaduba]

I recently purchased a tobacco burst MetroExpress (one of the last Japanese builds) Jazz basses and it is stellar. I have a NYC satin Modern which I love.... and I guess I have the itch to replace the MetroExpress with a satin NYC Jazz. Your counsel please. Stupid idea or go for it!

My MetroExpress is still mint with plastic wrap still on pick guard and electronics cavity.

 

[Spidey2112]

Reality is that there is a mixture of art and science/engineering in play.

Magic... you forgot magic.