• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Combo that can keep up with MB D-800/Berg REF210?

tradernick

tradernick

Mar 19, 2008
1,179
1,335
#1
I tried a thread search but got mostly results from many years ago for some reason. Obviously this question has been asked before.

My main gigging rig for the past several years has been a D-800 into either a Bergantino REF210 or 112. I use them both for outdoor gigs. I'm wondering if there's a combo that could keep up with the one-cab setup. I can thankfully say that at this point in my life, price is not an issue. Does anyone have real world experience on large club stages or smaller indoor concert stages using a combo ? Weight obviously matters (at my age) but the REF210 is 54 pounds so....

As an aside, I've been using Bergantino cabs for a long time and I wonder whether they're not interested in combos because they realize that there are too many compromises necessary to make them.
 
#4
tradernick said:
I tried a thread search but got mostly results from many years ago for some reason. Obviously this question has been asked before.

My main gigging rig for the past several years has been a D-800 into either a Bergantino REF210 or 112. I use them both for outdoor gigs. I'm wondering if there's a combo that could keep up with the one-cab setup. I can thankfully say that at this point in my life, price is not an issue. Does anyone have real world experience on large club stages or smaller indoor concert stages using a combo ? Weight obviously matters (at my age) but the REF210 is 54 pounds so....

As an aside, I've been using Bergantino cabs for a long time and I wonder whether they're not interested in combos because they realize that there are too many compromises necessary to make them.
Click to expand...
I think the market for high end combos is simply too small. There has been several discussions with Agedhorse from Mesa, with members begging for a new Mesa combo. I understand it would cost the same as the sum of its part, which is usually not what combo buyers are willing to pay for.

I'm happy with my lightweight Barefaced 112 and a lightweight class D amp, but if I had to buy a combo I would probably look at the GR Cube 800 - the wood version, not carbon fiber. I've had a carbon fiber cab, it sounded great but it feels fragile. Some GR bass users will tell you they've never had any problem with their carbon fiber cab. When I received mine, there was a huge problem of vibrations. They solved it, but it left me with a certain lack of confidence (and then I sold it).

The GR Cube 800 only weights 12,6 Kg - 27.8 lbs.
Compared to the 11 Kg - 24.3 lbs of the AT210 800, I think the extra kilo is worth the weight for better confidence and relieability.

I'm not sure how your current setup sounds, but you can expect a very "hi-fi" sounding combo.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TheDuff and Bassic_desires
#5
I just got a Markbass CMD 102P V combo. Very compact, versatile and powerful with nooks and crannies to store things away for transportation. Perfect as a stage monitor with XLR out to FOH. I had one before and the current model is a few pounds lighter. It's probably about 6-8 pounds heavier than the custom GR Bass Aerotech 212 Slim combos which are very powerful and are slightly warmer than the 212 Slim cabinet by itself.

1765824670903.png
 
  • Like
Reactions: TheDuff, rayzak, SJan3 and 4 others
#6
gtirard said:
I think the market for high end combos is simply too small. There has been several discussions with Agedhorse from Mesa, with members begging for a new Mesa combo. I understand it would cost the same as the sum of its part, which is usually not what combo buyers are willing to pay for.

When I received mine, there was a huge problem of vibrations. They solved it, but it left me with a certain lack of confidence (and then I sold it).

I'm not sure how your current setup sounds, but you can expect a very "hi-fi" sounding combo.
Click to expand...

It's too bad about MB or Berg not seeing the value in producing high-end combos but I get it. I'm currently reading about the vibration issues with the GR cabs and it's helpful to know that you experienced something similar. I'll go up to the AD when work slows down. I would need to really play through it a lot to see whether carbon fiber actually works for me. The AD says he has only the AT210V in stock at the moment but expects a bunch more coming through. I have to get my head around the idea of a single 12 combo providing the width and SPL that I might need on a bigger indoor stage. I'm likely just prejudiced in some way.

Just came across a discontinued Laney R500-115 at a small store near here. Trying to get some intel on that. 60 pounds : (

The Mesa D800 through the Berg REF210 sounds just as you say - very hi-fi, to my ears.
 
#8
pingvuiini said:
I just got a Markbass CMD 102P V combo. Very compact, versatile and powerful with nooks and crannies to store things away for transportation. Perfect as a stage monitor with XLR out to FOH. I had one before and the current model is a few pounds lighter. It's probably about 6-8 pounds heavier than the custom GR Bass Aerotech 212 Slim combos which are very powerful and are slightly warmer than the 212 Slim cabinet by itself.

View attachment 7389380
Click to expand...
Amazing array there.

The CMD 102P V seems to be sufficiently powered. I'll look into it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SJan3
#10
Two Barefaced OneT’s with the Activier module would have impressive output for the size I’d you use a preamp pedal for tone shaping. They cost a bit though. Love my single. Not as boomy as some make them out to be if you use a precise EQ with low pass.
 
#12
You could just consider looking for a lighter and more compact cab to pair with the D-800. Cab tech has improved a lot in terms of what you can get in a smaller and lighter footprint these days, IMO, particularly when you start including neo speakers.

My Markbass neo 4x10s are under 50 lbs each for a 4x10, and two of them stacked together have smaller dimensions than my old Carvin stack, which was just a 2x10 and 1x15. They sound huge as well, together or separately.
 
  • Like
Reactions: jmattbassplaya, 31HZ, tradernick and 1 other person
#14
MCS4 said:
You could just consider looking for a lighter and more compact cab to pair with the D-800. Cab tech has improved a lot in terms of what you can get in a smaller and lighter footprint these days, IMO, particularly when you start including neo speakers.

My Markbass neo 4x10s are under 50 lbs each for a 4x10, and two of them stacked together have smaller dimensions than my old Carvin stack, which was just a 2x10 and 1x15. They sound huge as well, together or separately.
Click to expand...
Just because the cabinet can handle the rated power of the amp. The cabinet should be rated at ~400 watts RMS if 8 ohms and 800 watts RMS of 4 ohms.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 31HZ, MCS4 and tradernick
#15
MCS4 said:
You could just consider looking for a lighter and more compact cab to pair with the D-800. Cab tech has improved a lot in terms of what you can get in a smaller and lighter footprint these days, IMO, particularly when you start including neo speakers.

My Markbass neo 4x10s are under 50 lbs each for a 4x10, and two of them stacked together have smaller dimensions than my old Carvin stack, which was just a 2x10 and 1x15. They sound huge as well, together or separately.
Click to expand...

This is something I will seriously consider. I think I've developed some preconceptions about cabs. For example I tried a few of the Berg Neo cabs several years ago, but learned that they were built with different (lighter) woods and for whatever reason I felt like I wasn't getting the type of full range response I was used to. Was it all in my mind?

I also tried the Barefaced cabs - specifically the 2 x 10. For some reason they just sounded a bit clinical to me and I let them go.

I'm sure there exists a small footprint 2 x 10 that's way less than 54 pounds and will compare to my REF210. I have to carry a bag around anyway because it has my gig kit in it (lots of spare stuff, toolbox). The D-800 fits in there no problem. So I have to maybe resign myself to taking 3 pieces around as opposed to having a combo and then stuffing all the spare stuff into a gig bag somehow for a two-piece trip. It's all about the load in/load out at this point, for local gigs anyway.
 
  • Like
Reactions: LakeEffect
#16
tradernick said:
My main gigging rig for the past several years has been a D-800 into either a Bergantino REF210 or 112. I use them both for outdoor gigs. I'm wondering if there's a combo that could keep up with the one-cab setup.
Click to expand...

I don't think you necessarily need to keep up. Rather you simply need something that is loud enough to meet your needs. A problem is a lot of companies don't publish relevant specs for combos. Another problem is there is no standard for specs, so they should be treated as ballpark estimates.

The D800 is rated 400W at 8 ohms

AFAIK
  • REF 210
    • 8 ohms
    • 400W
    • Sensitivity 99dB 1W/1m
    • Calculated SPL at 400W = ~125dB
  • Ref 112
    • 8 ohms
    • 350W
    • Sensitivity 99dB 1@/1m
    • Calculated SPL at 350W = ~123.4dB
Some older combos like an Eden Metro beat these numbers

AFAIK the Metro was rated 300W at 8 ohms. The internal 210 was equivalent to an 8 ohm D210XLT which was rated 350W and had a sensitivity of 103dB 1W/1m. Calculated SPL at 300W = ~127.8dB On the down side: The Metro was big, bulky, and heavy. Also, a Metro would be rather old.

Specs for either of the GR Bass AT 210V suggest they should be louder as well:
1765833033069.png


210V 350 calculated SPL at 350W = 129.4dB
210V 800 Calculated SPL at 400W = 130dB


My guess is one of the bigger GK Fusion or Legacy combos might get the job done. The webpage shows 212, 210, and 410 options. Not sure but the internal speakers may be equivalent to the NEO IV series.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Clark W and tradernick
#17
tradernick said:
This is something I will seriously consider. I think I've developed some preconceptions about cabs. For example I tried a few of the Berg Neo cabs several years ago, but learned that they were built with different (lighter) woods and for whatever reason I felt like I wasn't getting the type of full range response I was used to. Was it all in my mind?
Click to expand...

I can't comment on the Berg cabs you tried, but my Markbass neo cabs definitely are not missing any frequencies or "heft." Admittedly the 4x10 format probably helps, though. I did try one of their neo 2x10s and a 1x15 once many years ago but I don't recall what I thought about them since I didn't particularly care for the amp head I used with them.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SJan3
#18
tradernick said:
It's too bad about MB or Berg not seeing the value in producing high-end combos but I get it.
Click to expand...
I think they're not seeing it because the value you've written about above is from your perspective as an end user.
If there was enough value in it from their perspective as manufacturers, I think they'd be all over it.
From my perspective as an end-user, I have no need for a combo.
My TT-800 weighs just a smidge over 7 pounds and the cabs are 43 and 38. So around 88 pounds total, but obviously modular.
The last combo I gigged with weighed 80 pounds (SWR Redhead - original).
I think that coming up with combos that enough people are going to prefer over today's lightweight amps and cabs is a big enough ask under any circumstances, let alone keeping them at any kind of competitive price point.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 31HZ, agedhorse and tradernick
#19
Wasnex said:
I don't think you necessarily need to keep up. Rather you simply need something that is loud enough to meet your needs. A problem is a lot of companies don't publish relevant specs for combos. Another problem is there is no standard for specs, so they should be treated as ballpark estimates.


Specs for either of the GR Bass AT 210V suggest they should be louder as well:
Click to expand...
Appreciate you putting that together, it's helpful. Re: keeping up, it's weird, I am always getting told to turn up when gigging. I mean, I don't push the D-800/REF210 rig to its limits very often. The calculated SPL numbers for the GR cabs is instructive. I'm definitely going up to their AD here in Mississauga to play through them. I'll try to keep my mind open about carbon fiber.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Wasnex

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back