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Come talk to me about jazz please

#21
Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield
I think you are right, but he could be referring to "Jazz Standard" which is a commonly-used term?

So there is a core repertory of "Standards" - tunes which a full-time Jazz pro would be expected to know without sheet music and would be able to improvise over freely.

The more of these tunes you know, the more it helps you at gigs/jams and in terms of progressing as a musician, as they often involve concepts which are essential to an understanding of Jazz, as well as ideas that you can use in solos.

This is the way most of the greats learned Jazz - bu playing standards and listening to what other musicans did with them, then re-working them.
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You're probably right. I didn't think about this.
 
#22
Great thread!

So I've been looking back at some past jazz-related threads and reading some articles. I'm trying to improve my basslines. While trying to write a line for "My Funny Valentine" I've realized I've hit some kind of standstill or something. I've listened to a few versions of this song (minus bass) and still can't figure out the feel to it. The line I wrote isn't very good. Should it be a regular walking line? What? I just wrote a bassline for "All of Me" and I'm pleased with it..and I've never heard this song before in my life. I just had to rely on the melody.

I think my question is How can one improve writing jazz basslines? Is there some secret behind all this? How do you know what kind of jazz line you are writing when you barely know the song you are writing the line to (even after looking at the melody)?

Thanks :)
Stephanie
 
#23
Originally posted by stephanie
Great thread!

So I've been looking back at some past jazz-related threads and reading some articles. I'm trying to improve my basslines. While trying to write a line for "My Funny Valentine" I've realized I've hit some kind of standstill or something. I've listened to a few versions of this song (minus bass) and still can't figure out the feel to it. The line I wrote isn't very good. Should it be a regular walking line? What? I just wrote a bassline for "All of Me" and I'm pleased with it..and I've never heard this song before in my life. I just had to rely on the melody.

I think my question is How can one improve writing jazz basslines? Is there some secret behind all this? How do you know what kind of jazz line you are writing when you barely know the song you are writing the line to (even after looking at the melody)?

Thanks :)
Stephanie
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Well, as far as knowing what to play, how is the tune being played?

Bossa Nova, Latin, Swing, Funk, Ballad, Bebop, Jazz Waltz???

Then you've got tempo.

Fast, Med, Slow???

So, you could play My Funny Valentine as a Med. Funk, or a Fast Bebop, or a Med. Swing. Each style of jazz is going to have it's own rhythmic variations. Swing is often characterized by "swung 8ths notes," while bossas have a very distinct 1-5 feel, (which my teacher refers to as "The Business Man's Two-Step).

It's not a bad idea to take a tune like "My Funny Valentine" and play it as a bossa, as a swing, as a ballad.

Generally speaking, the style for the tune is agreed upon on the stage, and may be as brief as the band leader telling you how to play it, or something mutually agreed upon at a previous rehearsal, or something of that nature.
 
#24
Originally posted by stephanie
Great thread!

So I've been looking back at some past jazz-related threads and reading some articles. I'm trying to improve my basslines. While trying to write a line for "My Funny Valentine" I've realized I've hit some kind of standstill or something. I've listened to a few versions of this song (minus bass) and still can't figure out the feel to it. The line I wrote isn't very good. Should it be a regular walking line? What? I just wrote a bassline for "All of Me" and I'm pleased with it..and I've never heard this song before in my life. I just had to rely on the melody.

I think my question is How can one improve writing jazz basslines? Is there some secret behind all this? How do you know what kind of jazz line you are writing when you barely know the song you are writing the line to (even after looking at the melody)?

Thanks :)
Stephanie
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Again, I can't but recommend Ray Brown's method. He starts from very basic stuff and expands it to complicated walking lines over tough chord charts.
Very player-friendly, not an obscure esoteric theory book.
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#25
Originally posted by stephanie
I think my question is How can one improve writing jazz basslines? Is there some secret behind all this? How do you know what kind of jazz line you are writing when you barely know the song you are writing the line to (even after looking at the melody)?

Thanks :)
Stephanie
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The secret is to write basslines. I know that sounds a bit pedantic, but really that's the deal. Listen, and write, and listen and write again.... eventually, you start to know what works and what doesn't. Plus all the things these other guys have said.
 
#26
Thanks! :)

Yeah, I've been writing and writing. I do see somewhat of an improvement. Maybe I'm just rushing myself when I think I'm not at the level I wish I was at when writing jazz basslines.

This makes me think of improvising: It takes me almost a whole week to figure out a (good) bassline. When I just try to improvise, and not write anything down, etc.....it's not very good. :( I'm not downing on myself here. I know it takes practice...But I feel like I'm missing something here, despite all the advice I've been given by my teacher and here.

One good thing: I'm listening to more Jazz!

Anyway, Jazzbo, I've been playing "My Funny Valentine" at a slow tempo. My teacher had said sometimes when the band plays the song they funk it up, but I don't think he wanted me to get into that yet LOL. So it's just slow...is that what you would call ballad? So I wrote it as a regular walking bassline. I think what's messing me up is that I'm going in a back-and-forth direction with the chords. I seem to playing the same notes over and over again. I have the sound in my head how I want it to be but it doesn't want to flow out of my fingers. Hmmm...
 
#27
For ballad, I stick to 2 half notes per bar. That's generally considered a jazz ballad feel. Funny Valentine lends itself rather nicely with that, since you can voice lead down the changes in the first phrase.
 
#29
Originally posted by stephanie
So I wrote it as a regular walking bassline. I think what's messing me up is that I'm going in a back-and-forth direction with the chords. I seem to playing the same notes over and over again.
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For the head the A's are usually in 2, you can walk the bridge if you want. For "Valentine" where there's all those C minor chords, that usually gets a descending thing C-B-Bb-A- (one bar each) to Ab. I usually play, for example, C on beats one and two then on three and four do a little descending arpeggio thing and land on B, etc. But remember anything you put in there has to be in the C minor tonality.

For the bridge, where the chords walk up and down, you vary the line by using different voice leading, octaves. That kind of progression really lends itself to melodic playing. For example, the beginning of the bridge is Eb Fm | Gm Fm, right? With quarter notes you can play a melodic thing like Eb-G-F-Ab|G-D-C-D (G-D-C-F). Do you see how the notes connect?

The feel for any tune can be anything (like someone said), a trio I've been playing with does this one as a rhumba, but I think you're best off if you learn the tunes the usual way they're played first. Only then can you really know the tune and understand how other things might have been arrived at.
 
#30
Originally posted by stephanie
I think my question is How can one improve writing jazz basslines? Is there some secret behind all this? How do you know what kind of jazz line you are writing when you barely know the song you are writing the line to (even after looking at the melody)?
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There's been some great advice given so far, but I just wanted to check we're not missing the obvious here? So although it is good to hear the melody in your head, I must admit that when I started playing Jazz(and still now to a great extent) - as the bass player I am just thinking chords!

So - any Jazz tune is just a chord chart to me and there are these chords going past at a certain rate and that is what I am concentrating on - I often try to blank out everything else, the first time though and get the structure and shape of the chordal movement fixed in my head and only then "look up " and listen to what else is going on!

So what Ed and others have said is right and the more I play, the more I aspire to being sympathetic to what going on around me - but I just wanted to say that as a bass player coming to Jazz, chord charts are things you have to get quickly fixed in your head.

The other thing about "feel" - well I would just ask the band leader - "so what's the feel on this one" and they invariably say what they want !! ;)

As I say - this all may be overwhelmingly obvious, but just thought I'd state it!
 
#31
I missed the body of this thread and I wouldnt have anything helpful to add... so I'll just spout some old BS anyway ;)

I've had one jam with a pianist to run through some starndards and I found it damned near impossible to keep time and maintain the structure of the song while he was generally jazzing about.

I've been playing through a couple of Abersold CDs at home, minus the recorded bass and it's a miracle if I manage to actually play through an entire track and know where I am start to finish!!! - some of the blues numbers, watermelon man etc pretty are easy to follow (very different from leading obviously!), but when it comes down to lots of chord changes (ie. more than one per bar for more than a few bars!) it becomes really difficult.

It's something I want to do too, but I know it will take me so much time even to get to an even vaguely reasonable standard. Still, it'd be great to be able to play thourgh even the most simple of standards with a full band. :)
 
#36
Originally posted by TaySte_2000
Do most of you play fretted or fretless basses and why?

This is great guys keep the info coming. :)
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A lot of these guys play the fretless bull fiddle. Tis a silly instrument, impractical really, but it makes them feel better about themselves. Durrl says it's something about "the tone". Whatever. Ed I don't know, maybe it's compensating for something. Like the hair. Hmm. Don't know. Crackhouse, well, I just don't really know. They're all closet bass guitarists. They have 'em, bust 'em out when they really wanna say something on bass! Don't let 'em tell you otherwise. Liars. Liars! LIARS!

Eh-hum.

Anyhoo, I play da fretted and da fretless. Mostly da fretless.
 
#38
Originally posted by TaySte_2000
Do most of you play fretted or fretless basses and why?

This is great guys keep the info coming. :)
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I play on either, regardless of the type of music. On a tune like this I prefer fretless... 'cause it's purty.

I've played "...Valentine" in so many different ways it's not funny, from ballad with whole or half notes or walking, funk, merengue, waltz, go-go, polka(:eek: )... the main factor in deciding what I'm going to play for me is who I'm playing with and what I think will best propel them. For example, some like the added tension of lingering on a passing note, some don't. I keep the chord structure and melody in mind and try to work around it.

While I do play Jazz arrangements I still think I have a long way to go before I consider myself a Jazz player.
 

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