"Commitment"

[LiquidMidnight]

It usually means "we want you to play with our band exclusively". Which is, of course, pure nonsense. When a band can keep me gigging and making as much money as I think I could/should be making at it, I can commit. In the meantime, I'll play with whomever, wherever, and as often as I please. That "commitment" crap wore thin with me ... 30 years in the corporate jungle, and all it got me was a forced retirement about five years before I wanted to retire. I now do what's right for ME ... it may include you, but maybe not.

That's fine, but then I'll pay you as a hired-gun, which means a flat rate, regardless of actual gig revenue. So you may still only make market rate, even if it's a high paying gig. I also have no problem firing you if your moonlighting is causing the band to lose work.

I know two drummers who are constantly in and out of bands because they join and expect to be rockstars in two weeks. It's a shame, because they're both ubertalented. One's Berklee-trained. But I wouldn't work with either them unless it was to hire them to sub for a gig or two.

 

[LiquidMidnight]

Personally, I am annoyed by bands who try to keep everything to themselves because they are afraid someone is going to steal something. Me, I take the opposite approach. You want to know what songs work for a certain bar? I'll tell you and teach you the chords. You want to meet an agent? Sure I'll introduce you to him/her. You want to sit in to get exposure? No problem.
As if the music industry isn't reeling from various factors, but when musicians get all proprietary, it lessens the scene. A stronger scene is better for everyone, and it takes a communal effort to make it happen. If every musician took a 'MINE' attitude, we're literally up s*** creek without a paddle. If we help each other out, we at least have a paddle.

+1

The competetive route rarely ever works.

 

[Oneirogenic]

+1

The competetive route rarely ever works.

Yet many bands/musicians are far too myopic to understand that. I can't believe how many times I've seen other guys get all butthurt and nasty when they don't get a gig they thought they deserved or another band gets a break they don't think they deserved. I vividly remember a couple of guys getting real nasty over a write up in the local paper our band got. We got it because we network well, act professionally, and our music is decent I guess. We throw bones out to other bands whenever we can because you never know when that favor can turn back on you and help you big time. Sorry, kinda OT.

 

[gigslut]

I think that the real reason is because that section of CL is not is discussion board ...

I already covered that in my post, but you cleverly edited that portion out.

 

[Febs]

I already covered that in my post, but you cleverly edited that portion out.

I excerpted the specific portion of your post that I intended to reply to, just as you in turn did with my post. I did not change the meaning of your post in any way. Just hit the little blue button in the quote in my post. Your entire quote is still there for everyone to see.

 

[gigslut]

Yeah, I'm dubious of the "climbers" notion too. If a group is good enough to go somewhere, you don't "climb" beyond it. You don't network with good musicians by quitting their bands. If the group isn't that good, you don't profit much by hanging around it. Not much point in playing with guys to "steal" set lists when you can get them free on the internet... we actually had a thread on that a year or so back.

"Climbers" does sound to me like an idea coined to console people whose projects weren't going anywhere, to explain why the capable people left - "Oh those guys were just a bunch of climbers, out to steal my brilliant set list..." The fact that said people went on to join successful bands only reinforces the notion.

^this
Or, in other words, water seeks its own level. We had one of these so called "climbers" in one of my band for about a year. He was absent a lot because he had a lot of out of town gigs. He finally had to quit because he had too many great opportunities.

Our audiences were full of drummers studying him and awaiting his next hiatus or his imminent departure. He was an incredible drummer with a great feel and impeccable time. He knew most of our material almost intuitively and was a quick learner on the rest. He made me a better bassist for having worked with him, the process was virtually osmotic. The band stepped up its game, both musically and in terms of bookings. We didn't short his pay for being a "mercenary". He had our blessing when he left. Now, other really good drummers approach us because he recommended us.

Meanwhile, I work freelance with a number of bands, and occasionally get hit with the "mercenary" stigma. I tell everyone up front how I work and it usually works out. If it doesn't and I'm presented with an ultimatum, I counter with an offer to work exclusively with them if they put me on salary, and quote them a reasonable figure. They usually balk. If things don;t work out, we part amicably. I don't burn bridges. They often call me back to do sub work when the "dedicated" guy they hire starts to miss gigs.

See, you can hire a guy who will never miss a gig, but that is probably because nobody else wants him.

 

[RustyAxe]

That's fine, but then I'll pay you as a hired-gun, which means a flat rate, regardless of actual gig revenue. So you may still only make market rate, even if it's a high paying gig.

Fine. IF that's what I agree to from the git-go. Works for me.

I also have no problem firing you if your moonlighting is causing the band to lose work.

No problem here, either.

I know two drummers who are constantly in and out of bands
because they join and expect to be rockstars in two weeks.

Well, that ain't me ... been doing this for 45 years now, and I don't play rock.

 

[hrodbert696]

Perhaps, but you may be overthinking it a bit. As stated earlier, it may just be code for "don't waste our time if you're a flake." Granted, that won't necessarily keep the flakes from contacting the people looking for players; my guess is that most flakes don't have introspective times that they self-reflect on their flakiness.

In my experience, the best way to screen out flakes is to hit up your trusted personal contacts and see if they've worked with the candidate in question before. That works better in a smaller scene and may not always work great in a city, where there are a lot of musicians and not everyone knows everyone.

Ideally I agree, but I'd be a hypocrite for agreeing completely with something that would cut me out myself! I only started playing three years ago, didn't know a soul in the local music scene, and the only way I could (and did) start finding people to play with was posting and replying to CL ads. If they had asked for references on me from other musicians they would have come up blank (and it IS a small world around here, no big cities to speak of). Now, a few years in, if I want to recruit people for a project I have a few numbers I could call, and some references I could give, but a couple of years ago it would have been nada.

One thing I think is important to maintaining a healthy scene is a culture that welcomes the newbies and gets them up to speed.

 

[gigslut]

I excerpted the specific portion of your post that I intended to reply to, just as you in turn did with my post.

So you could pretend to ignore the fact that "reasons" for flagging was already covered. It's one thing to edit a quote to address a specific portion of it, another to blur the point of the post by cherry picking it and removing something that provides context.

I did not change the meaning of your post in any way..

You did, actually.
You substituted "reason" for "motivation" in your reply. There is a subtle difference which was the point of my post, and quoting it out of context obfuscated said point.
There are many posts on CL that violate the posting guidelines, including "discussion" posts on the community boards. Some get flagged off, others remain. The ones that get flagged are the ones that draw the most ire for cutting too close too the bone. The "reasons" are given in the flagging menu. The "motivation" is what prompts the flagger to to cite the "reason". Of course there are probably some folks who just peruse the boards looking for posts to flag, who will flag each and every violation with a vengeance. I just scroll past them. If the title starts with "re" I just don't open it expecting it to be something other than a discussion post.

 

[Febs]

So you could pretend to ignore the fact that "reasons" for flagging was already covered.

No, I omitted that portion of your post because I agreed with it, so there was nothing for me to respond to.

You substituted "reason" for "motivation" in the reply.

With all due respect, you're just being silly, and the fact that I used the word "reason" rather than "motivation" is a distinction without a difference. You can read my post as using the word "motivation" if it makes you happier, and it doesn't change my intent, which was to express my disagreement with the substance of that portion of your post that I quoted. My point is that I think that discussion posts get flagged because they aren't supposed to be there in the first place and people who are trying to use CL for its intended purpose get tired of having to slog through them.

 

[gigslut]

My point is that I think that discussion posts get flagged because they aren't supposed to be there in the first place and people who are trying to use CL for its intended purpose get tired of having to slog through them.

Those people who complain about "slogging though" those posts would be putting their time to better use if they followed this one simple caveat while reading posts.

"I just scroll past them. If the title starts with "re" I just don't open it expecting it to be something other than a discussion post."

If their real concern is saving time, this is what serves their interest best. If they continue to open these posts and flag them, then I suspect they are not being honest with themselves about what is "motivating" them to flag these posts for "reason".

At one point there were flaggers self righteously flagging "musician wanted" and "seeking band" posts in "community musicians" because they felt those ads belonged in "gigs" and "services".

 

[Febs]

If their real concern is saving time, this is what serves their interest best.

Not necessarily. Since there is no way to direct replies on CL to a specific poster, or even to identify a specific poster, the dialog, such as it is, almost invariably becomes impossible to follow and degrades into nothing but a pissing contest that goes on for days where no one know who is saying what to whom. It's also pretty predictable what kind of posts will lead to those stupidity-fests. A few seconds of flagging at the very beginning of one of those outbreaks can save time in the long run.

 

[gigslut]

Not necessarily. Since there is no way to direct replies on CL to a specific poster, or even to identify a specific poster, the dialog, such as it is, almost invariably becomes impossible to follow and degrades into nothing but a pissing contest that goes on for days where no one know who is saying what to whom.

Why try to "follow" it? Why not just "scroll past them. If the title starts with "re" I just don't open it expecting it to be something other than a discussion post."

It's also pretty predictable what kind of posts will lead to those stupidity-fests. A few seconds of flagging at the very beginning of one of those outbreaks can save time in the long run.

No it actually increases the inappropriate postings as the trolls top post when they discover their posts have been flagged. This adds to the confusion if you are actually trying to "follow" what is going on, as the sequence is now buggered.

 

[Febs]

Why try to "follow" it? Why not just "scroll past them. If the title starts with "re" I just don't open it expecting it to be something other than a discussion post."

Not all discussion posts/rants on CL start with "re".

 

[the yeti]

As stated earlier, it may just be code for "don't waste our time if you're a flake."

i was kind of lumping the "waste our time" crowd with the "commitment" crowd... maybe they're wasting my time by not offering something i feel a desire to commit to. or by being a general douche.

 

[the yeti]

Why try to "follow" it? Why not just "scroll past them. If the title starts with "re" I just don't open it expecting it to be something other than a discussion post."



No it actually increases the inappropriate postings as the trolls top post when they discover their posts have been flagged. This adds to the confusion if you are actually trying to "follow" what is going on, as the sequence is now buggered.

Not all discussion posts/rants on CL start with "re".

at risk to my own person, look at yourselves. you're turning this thread into c-list right now. your prerogative of course but that's kinda what it reads like.

 

[Febs]

at risk to my own person, look at yourselves. you're turning this thread into c-list right now. your prerogative of course but that's kinda what it reads like.

I don't think we've used enough expletives for that, but your point is well taken.

 

[LiquidMidnight]

Well, that ain't me ... been doing this for 45 years now, and I don't play rock.

Well, country star also pertains to both drummers, since they've played in country acts as well.

 

[LiquidMidnight]

i was kind of lumping the "waste our time" crowd with the "commitment" crowd... maybe they're wasting my time by not offering something i feel a desire to commit to. or by being a general douche.

I usually spend quite a bit of time talking with someone if they are interested in me and doing research on their project (if it's not a start up). It's not always fool proof, but you can usually screen out a lot of the time wasting projects before you load up for an audition.

 

[LiquidMidnight]

See, you can hire a guy who will never miss a gig, but that is probably because nobody else wants him.

I can only speak personally, but I've played countless gigs and through bad weather, sickness, vehicle trouble, and other issues, I've (knock on wood) never missed a gig. I even played a gig the night of my mother's funeral. Also, while I have asked for a couple of dates to be held open, I've never asked for a booked date to be moved or cancelled on my behalf.

While I'm not getting calls for the work that Will Lee is turning down, I'd like to think that other people dig playing me. Being reliable, void of bad habits and drama, reliable, easy to work with, reliable, not a prima donna, and reliable goes a long way, IME.

Unless I'm misinterpreting what you're saying.