Yeah--quite right, I wasn't really thinking it through--the hump would produce an error about big enough to notice if you were a virus sitting on a buckyball.
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common designs you feel are flawed
- Thread starter black_labb
- Start date
What is your opinion in the case of fretless instruments?
Wouldn't this wear occur for all frets as well?
I suppose it depends on how much you use the open string in comparison to every individual fret on the fingerboard.
I'm the guilty party regarding the zero fret blurb that Majestic posted.
I've replaced hundreds of nuts over the years, as well as more zero frets than I care to count. Most of my design choices came about from observing things as a repair guy, so I opted not to use zero frets because they are more costly and involved to replace than a standard nut. That all depends on the customer too, some players don't care if the wire is a duplicate of the original. Stainless is an alternative, but some people feel there is a difference in sound. Many players have very uneven wear depending on positions and keys they like to use so it's not uncommon from my little perspective to see the zero frets wear out relatively quickly as compared to the other frets. It also depends on the break angle of the "nut" right behind it.
In the same blurb (not posted) I go on to say that Rob Elrick and MTD make incredible instruments and players who like a zero fret as an option can't go wrong with either of those choices, I simply choose not to use them in my own instruments.
I have to take issue with the constant radius argument on here. A properly dressed constant radius will follow a straight line under the tapered path of the string. Just take a precision straight edge and check the length of the board under each string, if it's done right you won't see any light creeping over the fret tops. I associate the compound radiusing as a great option for guitar players who need to bend a -3rd+ cleanly with low action and don't want choking, but I don't view it as a huge plus on bass. That's just me though, plenty of great ideas and food for thought in this thread.
I've replaced hundreds of nuts over the years, as well as more zero frets than I care to count. Most of my design choices came about from observing things as a repair guy, so I opted not to use zero frets because they are more costly and involved to replace than a standard nut. That all depends on the customer too, some players don't care if the wire is a duplicate of the original. Stainless is an alternative, but some people feel there is a difference in sound. Many players have very uneven wear depending on positions and keys they like to use so it's not uncommon from my little perspective to see the zero frets wear out relatively quickly as compared to the other frets. It also depends on the break angle of the "nut" right behind it.
In the same blurb (not posted) I go on to say that Rob Elrick and MTD make incredible instruments and players who like a zero fret as an option can't go wrong with either of those choices, I simply choose not to use them in my own instruments.
I have to take issue with the constant radius argument on here. A properly dressed constant radius will follow a straight line under the tapered path of the string. Just take a precision straight edge and check the length of the board under each string, if it's done right you won't see any light creeping over the fret tops. I associate the compound radiusing as a great option for guitar players who need to bend a -3rd+ cleanly with low action and don't want choking, but I don't view it as a huge plus on bass. That's just me though, plenty of great ideas and food for thought in this thread.
dblbass
Commercial User
- Mar 24, 2007
- 368
- 74
- Disclosures
- Owner of MBJ guitars, Maker of fine sawdust for Carl Thompson Guitars
oh boy...where to begin...
1-short bottom lines kill the balance of an instrument sitting down. you should be able to put the bass on your lap and take your hands away and have it stay there. pick up 99.99999999 (you get it) % of instruments and do that little test and they all end up on the floor.
2-single cut instruments look cool no doubt but adjusting the truss rod on those things is no fun. also it adds a whole bunch of weight that i'd rather not have hanging on my shoulder. also its tricky to get an angle in the neck which leads us toooo....
3-instruments with no neck angle. it helps with the reach it helps with the action and i havent noticed anything negative about it.
4-truss rods that dont do much/dont work/are hard to adjust. why put an adjustment rod in your neck and than make it a pain in the ass to reach? Also truss rods with allen rench adjustments dont make sense to me. But the real bad news is when you are told to turn your rod 1/4 turn and wait a day or two. ??? the rod should react instantly. if im at a gig and i need to adjust my truss rod i dont have a day to wait. i need it now. And it is definitly possible to do that so...why not?
5-Another design flaw is when builders make things too perfect. like using a fretboard that is just barely thick enough to hold the frets or wires that are exactly the right lenght. leave a little room...when the bass needs new frets its nice to have some room to play with on the fret board and when electronics need to be worked on its nice to have a little wire to work with. im not talking a 1/2 inch fingerboard or 10 feet of wire but just enough to give a little room to work.
woah...that turned into quite the rant.
1-short bottom lines kill the balance of an instrument sitting down. you should be able to put the bass on your lap and take your hands away and have it stay there. pick up 99.99999999 (you get it) % of instruments and do that little test and they all end up on the floor.
2-single cut instruments look cool no doubt but adjusting the truss rod on those things is no fun. also it adds a whole bunch of weight that i'd rather not have hanging on my shoulder. also its tricky to get an angle in the neck which leads us toooo....
3-instruments with no neck angle. it helps with the reach it helps with the action and i havent noticed anything negative about it.
4-truss rods that dont do much/dont work/are hard to adjust. why put an adjustment rod in your neck and than make it a pain in the ass to reach? Also truss rods with allen rench adjustments dont make sense to me. But the real bad news is when you are told to turn your rod 1/4 turn and wait a day or two. ??? the rod should react instantly. if im at a gig and i need to adjust my truss rod i dont have a day to wait. i need it now. And it is definitly possible to do that so...why not?
5-Another design flaw is when builders make things too perfect. like using a fretboard that is just barely thick enough to hold the frets or wires that are exactly the right lenght. leave a little room...when the bass needs new frets its nice to have some room to play with on the fret board and when electronics need to be worked on its nice to have a little wire to work with. im not talking a 1/2 inch fingerboard or 10 feet of wire but just enough to give a little room to work.
woah...that turned into quite the rant.
I for one hate having to guess if an allen wrench is metric, US, Venus-standard, or whatever else is out there...they all seem to have too much play or don't fit no matter what size you try. What's wrong with just having a slothead??
My understanding is that the rod does react instantly, but the neck wood needs time to settle after a rod adjustment. Right before a gig seems like the wrong time to be dealing with such drastic adjustments. Wood takes decades to grow into its own grain pattern, and flighty human demands will not change that no matter what shape it is cut into-- it's wood, it is what it is, its not something to instantly change ten minutes before a gig, after all...a player should adapt to the wood and not the other way around-- ya can't be a sudden control freak in this area but it'll work with you if you work with it.
My understanding is that the rod does react instantly, but the neck wood needs time to settle after a rod adjustment. Right before a gig seems like the wrong time to be dealing with such drastic adjustments. Wood takes decades to grow into its own grain pattern, and flighty human demands will not change that no matter what shape it is cut into-- it's wood, it is what it is, its not something to instantly change ten minutes before a gig, after all...a player should adapt to the wood and not the other way around-- ya can't be a sudden control freak in this area but it'll work with you if you work with it.
I have less of an opinion (less strong) with fretless but maybe the nut should be the same material as the fretboard. Well this might onlly work if it's ebony. I am not sure a rosewood nut would hold up. Either way the nut should be barely off the fretboard. (i.e. if possible you should try to get mwah on the open string.)
You'll get wear on all of the frets, but the zero fret will always be in contact, and a big part of the wear will be from very small movements as the witness point rocks, or moves slightly side to side as you fret the notes you're playing. (by coincidence, the mechanical term often used for this type of wear is "fretting") Tuning up will do it too.
I fairly certain you're wrong on this one.. Granted, the error can be quite small depending on the layout, and in some cases may be below what you might notice on a quick check with a straightedge. Also you can set the angle such that the errors are averaged (middle strings a touch too low, edge a touch too high), and it'll be even less obvious.
The factors that affect the amount of error are the radius of the board, and the ratio of width between strings at the nut and at the end of the fretboard.
I also talked about string positioning having an effect, but as pilotjones said, that is really negligible. I think it's good to understand the fine details though, even if you plan to ignore them.
I do think a compound radius will be a worthwhile difference. It'll be subtle, but it will allow a lower action.
-Nick
PS: out of curiousity I just tried out the straightedge on the bass I just built. When I measure below the B and G strings, it's quite flat. Just the slightest hair of relief in the centre of the board. The A string has a little more, which agrees with my assertion. I didn't feel the need to level my frets, so you could blame it on that, and in fact my measurements might be bunk, but the effect is definitely legit.
You're not going to get mwah off a zero fret, so I do have an opinion about that. I definitely agree about getting the nut extremely low. It probably shouldn't be the same material as the fretboard though.
Most fretboard materials won't make a good nut. Tone-wise, the subtle muting from the edge of your fingers will be hard to emulate with a nut. I'd think you would want to lean to the duller side of things though if you wanted to get really anal about it.
-Nick
Yeah I was thinking about how you could get the nut to sound like your finger since your finger is effectively the fret. Maybe not have a nut but have a really strong band made of rubber hoding it against the bare fretboard? Someone can do better than that though. let's brainstorm
Well perhaps a zero fret should be stainless steel. That ruins half my argument for having the same sound as an open fret, but actually I am not quite so sure. In my experience the main difference in sound from using stainless steel frets was that when you fret them they are really clacky. You don't fret a zero fret since it is already down though so it might not make much of a difference. I would agree that it might make a very small tonal difference just from being a slightly different material. But atleast it's metal and has a similiar way that the string goes across it (not restricted laterally.) At the same time you get the perfect precision of the right height at each open string, with little effort. It's still a superior design in my opinion.
I've know builders to use a slightly taller zero fret than the other frets but I think this defeats the purpose
dblbass
Commercial User
- Mar 24, 2007
- 368
- 74
- Disclosures
- Owner of MBJ guitars, Maker of fine sawdust for Carl Thompson Guitars
I've seen truss rods that work instantly and its awesome. im not talking huge changes but tweaking my instrument before a gig kinda making sure everything is the way i like it. and i totally disagree with you about the player adapting to the wood, it seems to me if you're gunna put a truss rod in a neck you should put it in the best possible way right? and it should work as best as possible.
The offset Jazz body is the worst. Now with 35 inch scale basses and offsetting the body even more, you have to reach for first position. Why? P bass or stingray. The only 2 basses that have a body that makes sense.
I can't tell the difference between "true" single coils and the split-singles like Nordstrands or some Dimarzios, except for the lack of hum.
edit: interesting observation--i haven't noticed it, but after reading, i want to compare the body shapes and tummy cuts to see what you're talking about
...do you mean it's worse if you're sitting with the bass on your plucking-hand side leg? i'm confused, because i thought the concept of the offset waist put the tummy cut further towards the headstock (when standing), which would be opposite of the problem you describe
The things that irritate me the most about some of the basses i've played and owned (and still own) pretty much all have to do with erganomics;
1) Neck Dive - i can't belive that you could make an instrument for so long (fender) and still have this massive design flaw of the necks diving on 90% of their basses i've tried. Having been battling for years with RSI related problems in my wrists i KNOW how bad this problem can be (for me). and yes.. i play a jazz bass!
2) Neck Profile - this is obviously just my opinion, and i'm sure relates directly to my own hands, and everyone will probably differ on this - but i personally don't see how those fatter neck basses (warwick, pbass etc) work for people. i teach a lot of students every week, i've looked into technique extensively (thanks to my RSI's), and i just don't see how people could (when using correct left hand technique) not prefer a slimmer profile. Thicker profiles make the stretch for the fingers, and the curl in the fingers, excessively difficult in lower positions - unless you have huge hands, and then you'd be in the minority. IMO a design flaw.. but i'm sure people will disagree with me.
3) How the bass sits in the lap. If you're a teacher, you know how frustrating it can be trying to teach a beginner how to hold the instrument/basic technique when the neck keeps diving to the ground and/or the lower horn (if it exists) keeps sliding off the leg.
they're the big ones for me..
some good suggestions in this thread for builders! interesting stuff.
on whoever was saying that 24 frets should be minimum.. i just thought i might add that i used to think the same, but i didn't play much slap back then. i don't know, i've just realised how much easier it is to get that solid fundamental when slapping on fender style basses, and i think it has a lot to do with the fact that you have more room between the bridge and neck, and IMO that sweet spot is towards the end of the fretboard on a 20 fret bass. would love to hear some discussion on this..
all the best,
andy
1) Neck Dive - i can't belive that you could make an instrument for so long (fender) and still have this massive design flaw of the necks diving on 90% of their basses i've tried. Having been battling for years with RSI related problems in my wrists i KNOW how bad this problem can be (for me). and yes.. i play a jazz bass!
2) Neck Profile - this is obviously just my opinion, and i'm sure relates directly to my own hands, and everyone will probably differ on this - but i personally don't see how those fatter neck basses (warwick, pbass etc) work for people. i teach a lot of students every week, i've looked into technique extensively (thanks to my RSI's), and i just don't see how people could (when using correct left hand technique) not prefer a slimmer profile. Thicker profiles make the stretch for the fingers, and the curl in the fingers, excessively difficult in lower positions - unless you have huge hands, and then you'd be in the minority. IMO a design flaw.. but i'm sure people will disagree with me.
3) How the bass sits in the lap. If you're a teacher, you know how frustrating it can be trying to teach a beginner how to hold the instrument/basic technique when the neck keeps diving to the ground and/or the lower horn (if it exists) keeps sliding off the leg.
they're the big ones for me..
some good suggestions in this thread for builders! interesting stuff.
on whoever was saying that 24 frets should be minimum.. i just thought i might add that i used to think the same, but i didn't play much slap back then. i don't know, i've just realised how much easier it is to get that solid fundamental when slapping on fender style basses, and i think it has a lot to do with the fact that you have more room between the bridge and neck, and IMO that sweet spot is towards the end of the fretboard on a 20 fret bass. would love to hear some discussion on this..
all the best,
andy
Because IME a slothead is far clumsier to use than an allen which, if you use the proper size (I've had no issue finding the right one for any of my basses), has a far greater contact patch.
That also goes against my experience. I tweak my basses and they don't need time to settle. I'm not even sure how far back that edict about "1/4 turn and wait a day" goes. It's hardly the norm. Heck, I could make a quick tweak during a set if I was bored enough.
How about teaching students the importance of a good strap? I don't experience neckdive with any of my various basses becuase my straps won't let them dive. If I used a cheaper, more slippery strap it might be and issue. Instead I spent $30 and got good straps.
This also easily addresses your #3. I play with a good strap and keep the bass in the same position whether seated or standing.
I agree on the number of frets.
I don't get it. A Fender style 20 fret bass has every note exactly three times, no more, no less.
You want at least 21 - which gives you every note exactly three times... except E... you get 4 of those. Why should E be more special than the other 11 notes?
