common designs you feel are flawed

[Arx]

cool man.. each to his own.

IME straps definately help (i use wide leather straps on all my basses), but it definately doesn't help enough for me.

As far as teaching my students to play with a strap whilst sitting.. well, i do do that when i need to. But still a massive design flaw in my opinion. You shouldn't NEED a strap whilst sitting down! plus, if i'm doing 4-5+ hours practice a day, sitting down, with a strap pulling on my shoulder.. well, anyone who's been there i'm sure knows what i'm talking about. Neck dive is an issue that should not NEED to be solved - it should be solved in the product development stage, figuring out how the instrument is going to balance whilst sitting AND standing. all IMO obviously.

ps. on another note, i agree that the bass should be in the same position whilst seated and standing. Thats why to me it's so important to have a bass that sits well in the lap, and balances the same when strapped on - so when you put your million hours of practice in sitting down, and then go to a gig and stand up, all your technique doesn't fly out the window.

BIG +1 here. That's exactly my point, and the force pulling the neck down has to go somewhere. The strap isn't correcting it, it's compensating for it. It can make a neck heavy bass more playable, but just because you can deal with a design flaw such that it doesn't bother you, doesn't make it any less of a flaw.

A good strap can make a huge difference, nobody's disagreeing, but I'd rather not depend on it.

When I built my first bass I knew it would be neck heavy (super wide wenge necked 5 string w/ a 37" scale B string), so I designed the body accordingly. I made the upper horn extra long, and shifted the tail end strap button up a few inches. End result, it's still got a tiny bit of dive, but it's easily managable with a good strap.

I absolutely love the bass, but I still consider the dive a design flaw, which I will correct on the next one I build.

-Nick

 

[Brad Johnson]

cool man.. each to his own.

IME straps definately help (i use wide leather straps on all my basses), but it definately doesn't help enough for me.

I used either a 3" smooth Levy's Leather strap, a Comfort Strapp or a 2.5" suede underside Levy's Leather strap. None are expensive and they all work great.

As far as teaching my students to play with a strap whilst sitting.. well, i do do that when i need to. But still a massive design flaw in my opinion. You shouldn't NEED a strap whilst sitting down! plus, if i'm doing 4-5+ hours practice a day, sitting down, with a strap pulling on my shoulder.. well, anyone who's been there i'm sure knows what i'm talking about. Neck dive is an issue that should not NEED to be solved - it should be solved in the product development stage, figuring out how the instrument is going to balance whilst sitting AND standing. all IMO obviously.

Suppose a larger headstock contributes to the sound? Should that contribution be discarded for the sake of a perfect balance? Not IMO. Getting that sound back is hard... keeping the bass from moving is by comparison very easy.

ps. on another note, i agree that the bass should be in the same position whilst seated and standing. Thats why to me it's so important to have a bass that sits well in the lap, and balances the same when strapped on - so when you put your million hours of practice in sitting down, and then go to a gig and stand up, all your technique doesn't fly out the window.

See the contradiction? I do.


Okay, see if you follow me on this: sitting down the bass is on your lap. I'm guessing you'd agree that's what is supporting the majority of the weight. If you put the strap on while sitting down, the weight of the bass is still being supported by your lap. How much pull on your shoulder do you think you'd experience (or have you tried this?)?

I've been there and I don't experience what you're talking about. I like using the strap because I'm not using anything but the strap to keep the bass in place; neither hand, not my forearm, nothing... I can raise both hands and it stays put.

One of the best changes I made years ago was to place my basses in the same position seated as standing. I found that the strap doesn't really have to provide weight support when seated. It's holding the bass in position.

 

[Brad Johnson]

BIG +1 here. That's exactly my point, and the force pulling the neck down has to go somewhere. The strap isn't correcting it, it's compensating for it. It can make a neck heavy bass more playable, but just because you can deal with a design flaw such that it doesn't bother you, doesn't make it any less of a flaw.

If it doesn't bother you, it's not an issue. If it's not an issue, why would it be a flaw?

A good strap can make a huge difference, nobody's disagreeing, but I'd rather not depend on it.

And I'd rather be able to play any bass I want. Different strokes.

When I built my first bass I knew it would be neck heavy (super wide wenge necked 5 string w/ a 37" scale B string), so I designed the body accordingly. I made the upper horn extra long, and shifted the tail end strap button up a few inches. End result, it's still got a tiny bit of dive, but it's easily managable with a good strap.

I absolutely love the bass, but I still consider the dive a design flaw, which I will correct on the next one I build.

-Nick

 

[Brad Johnson]

I read somewhere that manufacturers deliberately make the truss rod nut of soft metal so it'll strip before the rod threads do if it's cranked too hard (easier to replace). When you get a second-hand bass, there's the possibility the previous owner used the wrong sized allen wrench and started the process of stripping the female hex receptor of the nut (sorry to use such a technical and/or sexual term LOL). Are all allen wrenches created equal? Usually they are black, but sometimes the ones that come with cheapo basses are that yellow-plated type. Ideally should the wrench be as soft as the nut, or harder?

Anyone can "gorilla" any trussrod adjuster to the point of breaking it. Can't gorilla proof them. Most that I've seen rounded off were because of using the wrong sized tool or not having proper AND easy access to the adjuster.

 

[Arx]

I used either a 3" smooth Levy's Leather strap, a Comfort Strapp or a 2.5" suede underside Levy's Leather strap. None are expensive and they all work great.



Suppose a larger headstock contributes to the sound? Should that contribution be discarded for the sake of a perfect balance? Not IMO. Getting that sound back is hard... keeping the bass from moving is by comparison very easy.

There are other ways to balance it. IMO it's worthwhile. Re-positioning the strap buttons, making sure the horn is long enough, and that the bridge (and therefore neck) isn't too far from the tail of the bass, even adding weight can sometimes help.

Nobody's suggesting that balance is the most important characteristic, but I would certainly say unbalanced basses are fairly common, and that it is a design flaw. It's not necessarily a dealbreaker if it's within reason.

See the contradiction? I do.


Okay, see if you follow me on this: sitting down the bass is on your lap. I'm guessing you'd agree that's what is supporting the majority of the weight. If you put the strap on while sitting down, the weight of the bass is still being supported by your lap. How much pull on your shoulder do you think you'd experience (or have you tried this?)?

I've been there and I don't experience what you're talking about. I like using the strap because I'm not using anything but the strap to keep the bass in place; neither hand, not my forearm, nothing... I can raise both hands and it stays put.

One of the best changes I made years ago was to place my basses in the same position seated as standing. I found that the strap doesn't really have to provide weight support when seated. It's holding the bass in position.

I don't see any more contradiction in what he said than what you just explained.

A bass that is neck heavy, and being held in place with the strap will tend to shift as soon as any weight is taken off. Of course the shape of the bottom edge of the bass can have a large effect if you allow it to rest fully on your lap.

if you set your strap high enough that sitting down has no effect, than you're fine. I find my bass most comfortable slightly lower. When I sit, the bass rests on my leg in a similar position to where it is when I'm standing, but the weight on the strap is reduced.

 

[Brad Johnson]

There are other ways to balance it. IMO it's worthwhile. Re-positioning the strap buttons, making sure the horn is long enough, and that the bridge (and therefore neck) isn't too far from the tail of the bass, even adding weight can sometimes help.

You're assuming that hasn't been done in the situation I mentioned. I don't know why.

Nobody's suggesting that balance is the most important characteristic, but I would certainly say unbalanced basses are fairly common, and that it is a design flaw. It's not necessarily a dealbreaker if it's within reason.

In this tangent the subject is balance. I didn't say anyone was suggesting that it's the most important characteristic and as such I have no idea why you're pointing that out. I'd think that was obvious. And while it's not necessarily a dealbreaker, that doesn't mean it's not a dealbreaker. For some.

I don't see any more contradiction in what he said than what you just explained.

Maybe you didn't understand my point. And what contradiction do you see in what I explained?

IF you have the bass in the same position seated as standing* AND your seated position is without a strap, why would putting a strap on while seated put undue pressure on you? You're still primarily supporting the bass with your lap.

A bass that is neck heavy, and being held in place with the strap will tend to shift as soon as any weight is taken off. Of course the shape of the bottom edge of the bass can have a large effect if you allow it to rest fully on your lap.

Not if you're wearing a strap and supporting the bass on your lap as I said. If you do it as I described, the primary support of the weight of the bass is not the strap... the strap is only holding it in place. Most neck dive that I've seen isn't because of a large amount of weight at the neck, it's about a slippery strap that exacerbates the issue.

Here's a quick analogy: Stand a sledgehammer vertically on a floor, with the weight towards the bottom. Now place you finger on the top of the handle. You're using far less effort to balance the sledgehammer vertically than if you picked it up.

if you set your strap high enough that sitting down has no effect, than you're fine. I find my bass most comfortable slightly lower. When I sit, the bass rests on my leg in a similar position to where it is when I'm standing, but the weight on the strap is reduced.

Which is what "I" said. If the weight on the strap is reduced, what effect does that have on the bassist who plays seated for 4-5 hours?

BTW Brubakers have a relatively small headstock and balance great.



*bass349 and I agree on this.

 

[Arx]

You're assuming that hasn't been done in the situation I mentioned. I don't know why.

No, I was just talking about the original topic "common designs you feel are flawed"

I consider an unbalanced bass flawed. Granted, if it's close enough to be easily dealt with, that flaw won't cause any serious problems.

In this tangent the subject is balance. I didn't say anyone was suggesting that it's the most important characteristic and as such I have no idea why you're pointing that out. I'd think that was obvious. And while it's not necessarily a dealbreaker, that doesn't mean it's not a dealbreaker. For some.

I guess I just don't understand how someone could say that an unbalanced bass isn't a flawed design. I was just trying to clarify that I see it as a flaw, but not necessarily a huge one.

Maybe you didn't understand my point. And what contradiction do you see in what I explained?

IF you have the bass in the same position seated as standing* AND your seated position is without a strap, why would putting a strap on while seated put undue pressure on you? You're still primarily supporting the bass with your lap.

Yes, you would be supporting the bass with your lap, but if that's the case, how is the strap going to help you? It won't keep anything in position unless it's got some weight on it.

Not if you're wearing a strap and supporting the bass on your lap as I said. If you do it as I described, the primary support of the weight of the bass is not the strap... the strap is only holding it in place. Most neck dive that I've seen isn't because of a large amount of weight at the neck, it's about a slippery strap that exacerbates the issue.

The slippery strap is exacerbating the issue that the neck is heavy. Exactly my point. If the bass is balanced, a slippery strap isn't a problem, because the strap doesn't need the traction to keep the bass balanced.

With a strap that is not slippery, the strap has to correct for the imbalance by gripping your shoulder against the force exerted by gravity. There will be a pull on your shoulder, in the direction in which the neck is trying to fall.

Here's a quick analogy: Stand a sledgehammer vertically on a floor, with the weight towards the bottom. Now place you finger on the top of the handle. You're using far less effort to balance the sledgehammer vertically than if you picked it up.

This analogy doesn't fit at all. the end of the lever arm (the top of the handle) would be analog to the end of the headstock, not the shoulder strap. The strap button, which you're lifting the weight of the neck by, is actually fairly close to the fulcrum.

You're taking a sledgehammer which is lying flat on the floor, and then lifting the moderately heavy handle up by lifting at a point a couple inches away from the head. It doesn't take the full force that it would take to lift the whole hammer, but it is an inefficient point to lift from. I won't take the analogy any further than that, because it doesn't take into account the shift of the load as the strap button is moved, etc. It's not that applicable.

Which is what "I" said. If the weight on the strap is reduced, what effect does that have on the bassist who plays seated for 4-5 hours?

BTW Brubakers have a relatively small headstock and balance great.



*bass349 and I agree on this.

Hey, I'm totally with you. A good strap is awesome, and I'd highly recommend that people follow your advice and get one. My bass is a little bit top-heavy, and is still fairly comfortable and easy to play because I have a decent strap.

OTOH, if the bass was balanced better, the strap would be less important, and the bass would be even more comfortable to play, and that's my whole point. (Band-aids are good, but it's better not to cut yourself)

-Nick

 

[dblbass]

eh......?

thats probably one of the worst designes ive seen. some things are ok about it but overall...

 

[Brad Johnson]

eh......?

thats probably one of the worst designes ive seen. some things are ok about it but overall...

What?

 

[Brad Johnson]

No, I was just talking about the original topic "common designs you feel are flawed"

I had mentioned a specific example.

I consider an unbalanced bass flawed. Granted, if it's close enough to be easily dealt with, that flaw won't cause any serious problems.

I guess I just don't understand how someone could say that an unbalanced bass isn't a flawed design. I was just trying to clarify that I see it as a flaw, but not necessarily a huge one.

I'm not saying it's not a flaw. I'm saying it's not as detrimental as many seem to think. Many people think any neck dive is a big deal and I'm saying that with the right strap it's not even an issue. It appears that some think the player will still experience some kind of pulling and I disagree, based on my experience.

Yes, you would be supporting the bass with your lap, but if that's the case, how is the strap going to help you? It won't keep anything in position unless it's got some weight on it.

Balanced or not, a bass that is not being held in place will move easily. A good strap can prevent that. If you have a good strap that keeps the bass from moving, would neckdive still be an issue?

The slippery strap is exacerbating the issue that the neck is heavy. Exactly my point. If the bass is balanced, a slippery strap isn't a problem, because the strap doesn't need the traction to keep the bass balanced.

I don't see it as exacerbating the issue... the issue was already there, it simply didn't address it. Again, even a balanced bass will move easily with a slippery strap. Some people like that.

With a strap that is not slippery, the strap has to correct for the imbalance by gripping your shoulder against the force exerted by gravity. There will be a pull on your shoulder, in the direction in which the neck is trying to fall.

And will that pull be noticeable?

This analogy doesn't fit at all. the end of the lever arm (the top of the handle) would be analog to the end of the headstock, not the shoulder strap. The strap button, which you're lifting the weight of the neck by, is actually fairly close to the fulcrum.

Consider the floor your lap.

You're taking a sledgehammer which is lying flat on the floor, and then lifting the moderately heavy handle up by lifting at a point a couple inches away from the head. It doesn't take the full force that it would take to lift the whole hammer, but it is an inefficient point to lift from. I won't take the analogy any further than that, because it doesn't take into account the shift of the load as the strap button is moved, etc. It's not that applicable.

I don't recall mentioning how you'd pick up the sledgehammer.

Hey, I'm totally with you. A good strap is awesome, and I'd highly recommend that people follow your advice and get one. My bass is a little bit top-heavy, and is still fairly comfortable and easy to play because I have a decent strap.

Do you notice your bass pulling on your strap in the direction of the imbalance?

OTOH, if the bass was balanced better, the strap would be less important, and the bass would be even more comfortable to play, and that's my whole point. (Band-aids are good, but it's better not to cut yourself)

-Nick

I guess it is pulling, based on that statement.

Neckdive is just one of the things a good strap addresses. Even my heavier basses are comfortable to play because of the straps I use. The strap is not a band-aid IMO, it's a staple. That's my point.

 

[Arx]

I had mentioned a specific example.

I'm not saying it's not a flaw. I'm saying it's not as detrimental as many seem to think. Many people think any neck dive is a big deal and I'm saying that with the right strap it's not even an issue. It appears that some think the player will still experience some kind of pulling and I disagree, based on my experience.

Okay, well I was responding within the context of the original post, and of bass349's statement that he though neck dive was a design flaw. As far as the pulling goes, It has to occur.. that's simple physics. If gravity is acting on an object (the neck), and it's not moving there has to be another force balancing it out. that force is the traction of the strap on your shoulder and it will have a horizontal vector. If your strap is wide, and your bass is only a little neck heavy it may be distributed enough that you don't notice it.

Balanced or not, a bass that is not being held in place will move easily. A good strap can prevent that. If you have a good strap that keeps the bass from moving, would neckdive still be an issue?

Well, of course no bass is perfectly balanced so it's all relative, but the 3 basses I own are all slighly neck heavy (as virtually all basses are). All of them stay put just fine, though the heaviest one does apply a significant pull to my shoulder.
One is very close to balanced. I can hold it any way I want, walk, run, turn around in circles, and jump. It takes virtually no effort to keep it right where I want it the whole time.
The middle one is generally okay, but if I turn to quickly or jump it might slide a bit. No big deal.
The great big heavy one, which is definitely the least balanced tends to want to head for the floor if I make any sudden moves.

None of them are badly enough balanced that I'm unhappy with them, but had I not built the neck heavy one with a really long top horn, I don't think any strap would keep it in place, and if it did, it would mean sore shoulders very quickly.

I don't see it as exacerbating the issue... the issue was already there, it simply didn't address it. Again, even a balanced bass will move easily with a slippery strap. Some people like that.

"The slippery strap is exacerbating the issue that the neck is heavy." Your words, not mine.

And will that pull be noticeable?

In this particular case, it is noticeable. It's not bad, because I expected it to be a problem and designed to minimize it. Not all designs do.

Consider the floor your lap.



I don't recall mentioning how you'd pick up the sledgehammer.



Do you notice your bass pulling on your strap in the direction of the imbalance?



I guess it is pulling, based on that statement.

Neckdive is just one of the things a good strap addresses. Even my heavier basses are comfortable to play because of the straps I use. The strap is not a band-aid IMO, it's a staple. That's my point.

Ok, I still think your sledgehammer analogy is still all wrong. You do say you're balancing the sledgehammer using your fingers on the tip. I still don't see how you could visualize the strap (or button?) as the tip. I was just trying to make the analogy fit, and suggesting that the leverage is actually working against you, and not for you as your analogy implys.

And yes, a good strap adresses neck dive. On some basses it will reduce it to the point where it's completely imperceptable. On some, it will be good enough to make it work, but not particularily comfortable, and some are just so top heavy that it'll be an annoyance regardless of what you use for a strap.

My band-aid analogy was probably bad, in that you could have taken it to mean that you shouldn't need a good strap unless you have a problem with neck dive, when what I was actually trying to convey is that IMO the neck dive shouldn't be there anyways. The strap may be able to deal with it just fine, but it shouldn't be required to.

Anyways, It seems we're getting a little off track here.
Maybe we should pick up on one of the more interesting tangents.

-Nick

 

[DanielleMuscato]

...Again, even a balanced bass will move easily with a slippery strap....

I disagree. An evenly-balanced bass will not move at all, regardless of whether the strap is slippery or not. That's what they mean by "balanced" - it stays where you put it, not because of anything to do with the strap, but because the center of gravity is exactly in the middle of the two ends regarding how you have it angled while you're wearing it. This is why moving the strap button changes the balance (changing the strap, on the other hand, doesn't - it only deals with the symptom of bad balance, aka neck dive).

 

[WarriorJoe7]

cool bass but a bad design in many ways...

Probably not far from this :

Link Removed

 

[dblbass]

not sure what you're saying what too, my wording or my statement but ill clear up both for yah.

That design is flawed. I see a couple of good qualitites about it, but overall i would consider it a bad design.

That bass isn't going to balance anyway you look at it. its probably heavy, like many gibson basses.

one nice thing about that bass is that im guessing it has a neck angle (most gibsons do and also that bridge leads itself toward angled necks) and gibson truss rods tend to work OK.

 

[namraj]

These are all good mentions.

Also,

A bass that sits too low in the lap. This is common on Warwicks. This not only encourages bad posture, but also lowers the neck, which makes playing much less pleasant (see the low slung rocker approach).

One shouldn't have to slouch to play when sitting down.

I have bad posture and have exercises to improve it, but when playing my warwick, both standing and sitting my posture improves

 

[coolrunner989]

I think plate style bridges are a flaw. I hate winding my strings around the tuners, and then when I want to change strings I have to pull all those turns of string through a little hole. Bridges like hipshot A style bridges you dont have to do that with. Their individual saddle bridges dont either.

straight (un-angled) headstocks that require string trees - why? Just angle it back. It looks cleaner and is easier to tune (you dont have to reach as far/awkwardly for the G string).

Active electronics where you have to unscrew something to get to the battery. Its slow, clumsy, you need to have a screwdriver handy - just let me pop it out, replace it, and put it back in. I know some basses have this, but the number of them that dont irritates me.

neck heels that dont allow for comfortable access to the higher frets. Fender comes to mind - that square block is probably a cheap, quick, and easy to manufacture joint when it first started, but in the modern-day manufacturing world, making a smoother transition from the neck to the body, even with a bolt on neck, is not hard to do.

+1 on the straplocks being standard by now - they are standard for me.

 

[namraj]

cool bass but a bad design in many ways...

ergonomically it is rubbish, but design wise its one of the best designed basses ever, because it sold and it was recognizable .

Look up a designer called Luigi Colani, he makes very pretty things, but i can't stand his work because it is largely floored when it comes to function, however he's minted and had an exhibition on him in the design museum. Thats successful design.

 

[erikbojerik]

That's what ears are for.

Not having markings leads to people having to watse time trying to figure out where things are set. With markings they can silently know where things are set... that's what eyes are for.

Nah...that's what sound check is for. Sorry, but I just like dome knobs...you can always rotate them so the set screw is pointing at your face, if you prefer.

To be quite honest...the average joe shouldn't be touching the truss rod. One of those "just enough knowledge to be dangerous" areas...

Disagree with this one strongly. Not knowing how to do something as simple as adjusting a trussrod only helps one person...
Should saddle and pickup height be off limits too?

Well, you can't ruin the instrument by tweeking the height of the pickup and saddles....but as the preceeding discussion of truss rod stripping proves, you certainly can ruin it by buggering the rod.

Q: How many guys do you suppose know that you should turn the truss rod 1/8 turn at a time....as opposed to (say) a full turn? A: A frighteningly small number.

You can tweek it between sets all you like, but without a straightedge you're shooting blind....and you'd better be prepared to adjust the bridge saddles as well if you change the relief significantly.

 

[Brad Johnson]

I disagree. An evenly-balanced bass will not move at all, regardless of whether the strap is slippery or not. That's what they mean by "balanced" - it stays where you put it, not because of anything to do with the strap, but because the center of gravity is exactly in the middle of the two ends regarding how you have it angled while you're wearing it. This is why moving the strap button changes the balance (changing the strap, on the other hand, doesn't - it only deals with the symptom of bad balance, aka neck dive).

So if you pull down on the neck the bass will not move? Cool... I can only imagine what's stopping it.

What you're saying doesn't make sense. Ever see Vicor Wooten swing his completely around?

 

[Brad Johnson]

Nah...that's what sound check is for. Sorry, but I just like dome knobs...you can always rotate them so the set screw is pointing at your face, if you prefer.

Cool... and if there's no sound check by all means don't use your ears, right?

Would you consider the setscrew a marking?

Well, you can't ruin the instrument by tweeking the height of the pickup and saddles....but as the preceeding discussion of truss rod stripping proves, you certainly can ruin it by buggering the rod.

And if you do any of the adjustments correctly you won't ruin the instrument either. It's about learning how. The previous discussion only proved a lack of knowing how to do it.

Q: How many guys do you suppose know that you should turn the truss rod 1/8 turn at a time....as opposed to (say) a full turn? A: A frighteningly large number.

And where did that "rule" come from? IME it's not true. Neither is restricting it to 1/4 per day.

You can tweek it between sets all you like, but without a straightedge you're shooting blind....and you'd better be prepared to adjust the bridge saddles as well if you change the relief significantly.

And that also is not a given. Why do you think you need a straight edge to make an adjustment? Are there any straight lines near the neck when you make adjustments? If you make a tweak to get the neck back where you had it, you typically don't have to touch anything else. And so what if you have to adjust saddles if you make a major change in relief... they're "adjustments"... that's why they're there.


I've had people on the internet tell me that a straight edge and ruler are mandatory when making a trussrod adjustment, which frfankly is bull. I haven't used either to set up any of my personal basses, my action is very low with no buzzes and people who like low action seem to love playing my basses, set up by me, as much as I do.

If you're inexperienced at doing it, it probably is a good idea to go by someone's instructions and use some tools. I'm not.