common designs you feel are flawed

[Brad Johnson]

not sure what you're saying what too, my wording or my statement but ill clear up both for yah.

That design is flawed. I see a couple of good qualitites about it, but overall i would consider it a bad design.

That bass isn't going to balance anyway you look at it. its probably heavy, like many gibson basses.

one nice thing about that bass is that im guessing it has a neck angle (most gibsons do and also that bridge leads itself toward angled necks) and gibson truss rods tend to work OK.

Until now I didn't know you were talking about Gibson basses. You posted the comment right after my post, with what appeared to be no indication by quote or whatever as to who or what you were referring to... much like this post where you again don't say who you're responding to.

BTW I took the "Eh....?" to be using the word as an utterance, not someone's name.

Thanks for almost clearing that up.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Okay, well I was responding within the context of the original post, and of bass349's statement that he though neck dive was a design flaw. As far as the pulling goes, It has to occur.. that's simple physics. If gravity is acting on an object (the neck), and it's not moving there has to be another force balancing it out. that force is the traction of the strap on your shoulder and it will have a horizontal vector. If your strap is wide, and your bass is only a little neck heavy it may be distributed enough that you don't notice it.

It is. That's why I was saying it isn't noticeable and IMO a problem that isn't noticeable isn't really much of a problem.

Well, of course no bass is perfectly balanced so it's all relative, but the 3 basses I own are all slighly neck heavy (as virtually all basses are). All of them stay put just fine, though the heaviest one does apply a significant pull to my shoulder.

All basses are virtually neck heavy? Even small headstocks or headless basses?

One is very close to balanced. I can hold it any way I want, walk, run, turn around in circles, and jump. It takes virtually no effort to keep it right where I want it the whole time.
The middle one is generally okay, but if I turn to quickly or jump it might slide a bit. No big deal.
The great big heavy one, which is definitely the least balanced tends to want to head for the floor if I make any sudden moves.

Strap?

None of them are badly enough balanced that I'm unhappy with them, but had I not built the neck heavy one with a really long top horn, I don't think any strap would keep it in place, and if it did, it would mean sore shoulders very quickly.

We have different experiences.

"The slippery strap is exacerbating the issue that the neck is heavy." Your words, not mine.

mea culpa

In this particular case, it is noticeable. It's not bad, because I expected it to be a problem and designed to minimize it. Not all designs do.

It's not with anything I own.

Ok, I still think your sledgehammer analogy is still all wrong. You do say you're balancing the sledgehammer using your fingers on the tip.

Pretty sure I said finger, singular. Fingers aren't required.

I still don't see how you could visualize the strap (or button?) as the tip. I was just trying to make the analogy fit, and suggesting that the leverage is actually working against you, and not for you as your analogy implys.

That's because I said nothing about visualizing a strap button on the sledgehammer (or did I?). This is merely about balance and weight distribution, not making a sledgehammer a bass.

And yes, a good strap adresses neck dive. On some basses it will reduce it to the point where it's completely imperceptable. On some, it will be good enough to make it work, but not particularily comfortable, and some are just so top heavy that it'll be an annoyance regardless of what you use for a strap.

Which has been my point all along. Yet I get people telling me it "will" pull and cause one to tire... which again is not necessarily true.

My band-aid analogy was probably bad, in that you could have taken it to mean that you shouldn't need a good strap unless you have a problem with neck dive, when what I was actually trying to convey is that IMO the neck dive shouldn't be there anyways. The strap may be able to deal with it just fine, but it shouldn't be required to.

My point about the strap is a simple one. If you have one and you always use it AND you don't experience neck dive with it...

Anyways, It seems we're getting a little off track here.
Maybe we should pick up on one of the more interesting tangents.

-Nick

I think everything should be clear by now.

 

[black_labb]

You can tweek it between sets all you like, but without a straightedge you're shooting blind....and you'd better be prepared to adjust the bridge saddles as well if you change the relief significantly.

if you push the string down on the first fret and just after the last the string gives you a straight edge, or atleast as straight as you need. an easy way to check neck relief

 

[dblbass]

Until now I didn't know you were talking about Gibson basses. You posted the comment right after my post, with what appeared to be no indication by quote or whatever as to who or what you were referring to... much like this post where you again don't say who you're responding to.

BTW I took the "Eh....?" to be using the word as an utterance, not someone's name.

Thanks for almost clearing that up.

haha sorry. yea i was responding to you. i guess you got it now. if not let me know again and ill see if i can clear it up some more.

 

[WarriorJoe7]

neck heavy basses are just stupid! What is it with you people? geez

LOL JK

 

[DanielleMuscato]

So if you pull down on the neck the bass will not move? Cool... I can only imagine what's stopping it.

What you're saying doesn't make sense. Ever see Vicor Wooten swing his completely around?

To clarify, I meant that if you let go of the bass (while you're wearing it on a strap), even if the inside of the strap is "slippery" (like leather, or nylon, as opposed to suede), it won't dip down at all, if the bass is well-balanced.

If you pull down on it, yeah, it will definitely move I just *hate* it when basses move "on their own" (and you have to hold them up while you play as a result).

 

[Arx]

It is. That's why I was saying it isn't noticeable and IMO a problem that isn't noticeable isn't really much of a problem.

I qualified that with 2 conditions meaning both must be true for it to be not noticeable.

All basses are virtually neck heavy? Even small headstocks or headless basses?

Yes, almost all basses are at least very slightly neck heavy. If you were to hang the strap over a rod with some bearings on it, most of them would drop towards the floor. The good ones will require very little force to hold them up, the bad ones will require more. I'm sure there's a few exceptions that will tilt neck up (most likely headless, or very small headstocks with light necks and parts)

Strap?

What about a strap? If you're asking if I was wearing one, then yes, obviously. If you're asking which one, it's a fairly wide Levy's leather one. IIRC, you mentioned having one like it.

It's not with anything I own.

Well, That's nice. Not everyone is so lucky.

Pretty sure I said finger, singular. Fingers aren't required.

Oh... That explains everything then.

That's because I said nothing about visualizing a strap button on the sledgehammer (or did I?). This is merely about balance and weight distribution, not making a sledgehammer a bass.

Umm. I think an analogy, is where you use one idea to demonstrate a concept, that might not be clear in its original context.
I believe you were using it to describe the small amount of force required to keep an unstable object at its balance point. (Though I'm not sure, it's a weird analogy) I was trying to explain how the analogy was flawed, and that the bass is not near its balance point, and that the point at which you're applying the force is actually not at the end, as you described with the sledgehammer.

Which has been my point all along. Yet I get people telling me it "will" pull and cause one to tire... which again is not necessarily true.

Well, if it's imbalanced, it will pull. That's physics.

If the pull is small, it won't cause you to tire. If the pull is large, it may.

My point about the strap is a simple one. If you have one and you always use it AND you don't experience neck dive with it...

Any my point is also a simple one. A good strap is a great way to deal with a neck heavy bass, and in minor cases is all that is needed. BUT a naturally balanced bass is better, especially if you move around while you play.

I think everything should be clear by now.

I sure hope so...

-Nick

 

[Arx]

neck heavy basses are just stupid! What is it with you people? geez

LOL JK

Well, a lot of neck heavy basses are just stupid...

some of them you can clearly see aren't going to work well, just from looking at a photo.

To clarify, I meant that if you let go of the bass (while you're wearing it on a strap), even if the inside of the strap is "slippery" (like leather, or nylon, as opposed to suede), it won't dip down at all, if the bass is well-balanced.

If you pull down on it, yeah, it will definitely move I just *hate* it when basses move "on their own" (and you have to hold them up while you play as a result).

I agree completely. My first bass was very light, and quite well balanced. I could comfortably play it with a cheap nylon strap, and it wouldn't move. I have tried basses, which I've put back on the shelf before even plugging them in because I could immediately tell they like to dive. A wide strap will keep them in place, at the expense of some comfort, but it doesn't take much to send it off.

-Nick

 

[erikbojerik]

If you're inexperienced at doing it, it probably is a good idea to go by someone's instructions and use some tools. I'm not.

My point exactly. Your level of experience, and of many on this board, are at a higher level than the average Joe Bassplayer.

 

[Human Bass]

My ibanez gsr200 has a light body and its not neck heavy at all, when i hold it by the horn like a strap, its quite body heavy.

 

[Brad Johnson]

My point exactly. Your level of experience, and of many on this board, are at a higher level than the average Joe Bassplayer.

The only reason I have a level of an experience is because I took an interest in my instrument. Anyone can do the same.

 

[Brad Johnson]

My ibanez gsr200 has a light body and its not neck heavy at all, when i hold it by the horn like a strap, its quite body heavy.

I was pretty sure it was possible that all basses aren't neck heavy.

 

[Brad Johnson]

if you push the string down on the first fret and just after the last the string gives you a straight edge, or atleast as straight as you need. an easy way to check neck relief

Yep.

 

[Arx]

My ibanez gsr200 has a light body and its not neck heavy at all, when i hold it by the horn like a strap, its quite body heavy.

Yes, but your strap doesn't lift from a single point. My most neck heavy bass feels body heavy when you lift it that way. The question is when you lift it by the middle of the strap, which way does it go?

The only reason I have a level of an experience is because I took an interest in my instrument. Anyone can do the same.

Agreed. A trussrod adjustment isn't rocket science. A beginner should certainly be cautious until they know what they're doing, but as long as they take it slow, and make sure they're using the right tool it's no big deal.

I think the biggest beginner mistake, though, is using the trussrod to try and raise/lower the action, instead of shimming the neck.

I was pretty sure it was possible that all basses aren't neck heavy.

Of course they aren't all neck heavy, but most are. (though generally only slightly)

-Nick

 

[bass349]

Wow.. a lot of argument on my behalf!

I think it's mostly been clarified exactly what the different sides stand for (ie Brad verses the rest of the world ).

I agree with most of what ARX and Dave Muscato have said. no point throwing too much more in the pot at this point of the argument.

Basically i believe that the only thing that has caused a difference of opinion in this matter is the fact that we obviously have had different experiences that have led us to form our opinions. As Brad has mentioned, all the basses he owns he feels he can rectify any neck dive "issue" with a good strap. In my experience and a few others' here, that is simply not the case - at least not to rectify the issue to a point where we're satisfied!

Simple as that.. different experiences.. different opinions.. all cool

One thing that i might say that no one has mentioned is that i believe body/torso size may have quite a bit to do with it. I'm not a huge guy and this neck dive problem is a serious issue for me. i'd be really interested to know what Brad's rough body size would be, cause i really suspect that that may have a lot to do with it. A longer strap (ie. adjusted for a taller person) will put the balance point at a completely different point in the strap and the bass will hang at a completely different angle.. a better angle i believe. some food for thought...

Anyway.. thanks for fighting my cause guys, and thanks to Brad for his opinions, because it has made me think about this a little more - i had no idea that there were guys that really didn't think of neck dive as an issue.

all the best,
Andy.

 

[WarriorJoe7]

One thing that CERTAINLY has to do with it that hasn't been brought up is at what angle and height the bass must be for different people. There wuld be no agreement on that (and there shouldn't be becasue we all have different necks, torsos, arms, wrists, and fingers.) A bass that may be perfectle balanced with a low slung body and the neck angled up near my neck (like I usually do,) may be perfectly balanced if I have the body on my chest and the neck straight out (like I have to wear a thumb LOL.) The only thing about this is that sometimes people wear it a certain way and don't know it would be more comfortable (for them personally) if they did another way.

Also some people NEVER sit to play bass and never will (there may be someone who never stands also like in a wheelchair etc.)

 

[SuperDuck]

I'm just reading this last page, and I can safely say, without a doubt, that this is the BEST debate I have ever seen on these boards. Period.

 

[WarriorJoe7]

Whoops I just read the rest of your post about angle and you covered it. You are right on my man.

Actually it is true that quite a few of the things I brought up could have other sides like this too. I would like to hear from people who disagree with me too, if they can do it in a constructive way.

 

[WarriorJoe7]

I'm just reading this last page, and I can safely say, without a doubt, that this is the BEST debate I have ever seen on these boards. Period.

I personally have seen and been a part of great ones... and I know that I have seen Brad Johnson in more thana afew good ones. The debates I get into tend to be more technical and sometimes I am wrong and get good info from a debate. Sometimes I am right though. It's always good to see others perspectives though as long as it is constructive and not nitpicky.

 

[Arx]

Wow.. a lot of argument on my behalf!

I think it's mostly been clarified exactly what the different sides stand for (ie Brad verses the rest of the world ).

I agree with most of what ARX and Dave Muscato have said. no point throwing too much more in the pot at this point of the argument.

Basically i believe that the only thing that has caused a difference of opinion in this matter is the fact that we obviously have had different experiences that have led us to form our opinions. As Brad has mentioned, all the basses he owns he feels he can rectify any neck dive "issue" with a good strap. In my experience and a few others' here, that is simply not the case - at least not to rectify the issue to a point where we're satisfied!

Simple as that.. different experiences.. different opinions.. all cool

One thing that i might say that no one has mentioned is that i believe body/torso size may have quite a bit to do with it. I'm not a huge guy and this neck dive problem is a serious issue for me. i'd be really interested to know what Brad's rough body size would be, cause i really suspect that that may have a lot to do with it. A longer strap (ie. adjusted for a taller person) will put the balance point at a completely different point in the strap and the bass will hang at a completely different angle.. a better angle i believe. some food for thought...

Anyway.. thanks for fighting my cause guys, and thanks to Brad for his opinions, because it has made me think about this a little more - i had no idea that there were guys that really didn't think of neck dive as an issue.

all the best,
Andy.

Yeah, that's a good point. The length the strap is set to may have some effect. I'm quite tall, and have wide shoulders, but I do hold my bass fairly high. It might be a different story for someone who wears it lower.

Also, as you say, some people just haven't owned a bass with a heavy-ass neck.

-Nick