common designs you feel are flawed

[pilotjones]

Factor that's been neglected so far:

The balance of the bass also depends on the shape and size of the body of the user, as well as the length of the strap. Why?

When the bass is hanging on you, it's actually a more complex situation than "how does the bass hang if you were to put the strap over a rod with bearings,"* or "how does the bass hang when I pick it up by the end of the horn."

When the bass is hanging on you, there are four principle forces acting on the bass.
1. weight: the force of the bass, due to gravity. Acts in a straight down direction, always. Acts is if it were concentrated at a point known as the center of mass. This point will be closer to the head or the tail of the instrument, depending on the design and woods and hardware moving that point one way or the other.
2. belly force: the bass rests against the body--the other side of this is that the body is pressing "outwards" against the bass. This force will be nearly straight outwards for most (human) body shapes. If you have a large, low-slung gut, this force could be somewhat upwards also.
3. upper strap force: the support force applied to the bass body by the strap at the horn. This is mostly upwards, but can vary; for a person who's big front-to-back, there can be a significant"backward" component. Also, depending on the body design, and also on how wide the particular human body is, the force can have some component out towards the headstock (short horn and/or wide-shouldered and -necked guy), or towards the tail (longer horn and/or skinny guy).
4. lower strap force: upper strap force: the support force applied to the bass body by the strap at the tail. This one is not what one might think at first. It has some upward component, but this can be very variable according to how high you wear the bass; and it has a large backward (towards the person's back) component, that is largely countered by the belly force. There's also a component that at least with most body designs, goes towards the center of the body of the bass. The upward component will be fairly little if you wear the bass high, and the strap barely goes under your armpit; and will be very large if yo wear the bass slung low, metal style.

So, there are actually four forces, in a 3D geometry that varies according to strap configuration and human body shape. And I can imaging a bass neck diving on a skinny guy who wears it high, and not diving at all on a larger guy with a longer strap/lower playing position.

*imagine a bass, on a strap, the strap over a rod that has bearings so that it is free to turn. you can slide the strap along the rod in either direction and find a stable position where the neck is towards the floor; another stable position where the head points at the sky, nearly; and a third, less stable position between these,. You might call this the "balance point," but it has little relation to where it will hang on a person's body, because the geometry's wrong and a force is missing.

 

[black_labb]

to beat a dead horse, you can check how the bass balances by holding it at the front strap button (or near to get a near aproximation) and feel where it tries to go. if the neck dives, it has some neck dive (use your judgement to gauge how much) if not it doesnt. basically the test is wether the centre of balance is between the 2 strap buttons (it wont be past the rear one one). try to hold it how you would normally hold the bass.

i think a firebird would look great as a headless unit, and probably fix the neck dive.

 

[Arx]

to beat a dead horse, you can check how the bass balances by holding it at the front strap button (or near to get a near aproximation) and feel where it tries to go. if the neck dives, it has some neck dive (use your judgement to gauge how much) if not it doesnt. basically the test is wether the centre of balance is between the 2 strap buttons (it wont be past the rear one one). try to hold it how you would normally hold the bass.

i think a firebird would look great as a headless unit, and probably fix the neck dive.

There's more to it than that. All of my basses point up if I hold them at the strap button. You're right that if your bass does dive when you grab it this way you have a serious neck dive problem, but if it doesn't, it doesn't mean it's free of dive,

-NIck

 

[()smoke()]

There's more to it than that. All of my basses point up if I hold them at the strap button. You're right that if your bass does dive when you grab it this way you have a serious neck dive problem, but if it doesn't, it doesn't mean it's free of dive,

-NIck

yep, unless you hook both ends of your strap to the upper horn button and wear it like a necklace

 

[WarriorJoe7]

yep, unless you hook both ends of your strap to the upper horn button and wear it like a necklace

damnit now my secrets out

 

[Arx]

yep, unless you hook both ends of your strap to the upper horn button and wear it like a necklace

I use straplocks... How do I attach the second one?

 

[()smoke()]

I use straplocks... How do I attach the second one?

you only need on straplock--loop both strap ends thru it...think of the $$ saved when 1 set now covers 2 instruments


...for more flava, thread your strap through a large analog clock

 

[black_labb]

There's more to it than that. All of my basses point up if I hold them at the strap button. You're right that if your bass does dive when you grab it this way you have a serious neck dive problem, but if it doesn't, it doesn't mean it's free of dive,

-NIck

seems to me that it may be a different issue, as if it balances like that, then the neck wont dive. if the balance point is between the 2 straps (put a vertical line through each strap, the balance point should be between these lines to balance) then it should be stable. its torque from gravity acting on the instrument.

are you checking the balance without hardware (tuners can be heavy)? if its still giving you issues then maybe its probably something else, maybe how you hold the bass or something.

 

[bass349]

Factor that's been neglected so far:

The balance of the bass also depends on the shape and size of the body of the user, as well as the length of the strap. Why?

When the bass is hanging on you, it's actually a more complex situation than "how does the bass hang if you were to put the strap over a rod with bearings,"* or "how does the bass hang when I pick it up by the end of the horn."

When the bass is hanging on you, there are four principle forces acting on the bass.
1. weight: the force of the bass, due to gravity. Acts in a straight down direction, always. Acts is if it were concentrated at a point known as the center of mass. This point will be closer to the head or the tail of the instrument, depending on the design and woods and hardware moving that point one way or the other.
2. belly force: the bass rests against the body--the other side of this is that the body is pressing "outwards" against the bass. This force will be nearly straight outwards for most (human) body shapes. If you have a large, low-slung gut, this force could be somewhat upwards also.
3. upper strap force: the support force applied to the bass body by the strap at the horn. This is mostly upwards, but can vary; for a person who's big front-to-back, there can be a significant"backward" component. Also, depending on the body design, and also on how wide the particular human body is, the force can have some component out towards the headstock (short horn and/or wide-shouldered and -necked guy), or towards the tail (longer horn and/or skinny guy).
4. lower strap force: upper strap force: the support force applied to the bass body by the strap at the tail. This one is not what one might think at first. It has some upward component, but this can be very variable according to how high you wear the bass; and it has a large backward (towards the person's back) component, that is largely countered by the belly force. There's also a component that at least with most body designs, goes towards the center of the body of the bass. The upward component will be fairly little if you wear the bass high, and the strap barely goes under your armpit; and will be very large if yo wear the bass slung low, metal style.

So, there are actually four forces, in a 3D geometry that varies according to strap configuration and human body shape. And I can imaging a bass neck diving on a skinny guy who wears it high, and not diving at all on a larger guy with a longer strap/lower playing position.

*imagine a bass, on a strap, the strap over a rod that has bearings so that it is free to turn. you can slide the strap along the rod in either direction and find a stable position where the neck is towards the floor; another stable position where the head points at the sky, nearly; and a third, less stable position between these,. You might call this the "balance point," but it has little relation to where it will hang on a person's body, because the geometry's wrong and a force is missing.

Great post!

Some really interesting information there.. makes a lot of sense to me.

Basically.. what i get from your post is that if you're having neck dive problems, it could be worth trying slightly different strap height options to find that ideal balance point that we're all after. I have done this (just a couple of weeks ago actually) and it helped a little - but not a lot. I'm a fairly skinny guy - and as your post suggests, lowering the strap helped helped bring that neck into a slightly better position and took away a *little* of the dive. Unfortunately, for me, bringing the neck to the point where it's at an ideal angle puts my strap very low.. and leads to my left hand wrist being at an angle which will hurt me (i have tendonitis, which is an extreme case, but NO-ONE should be playing with their wrist at an angle if they want to avoid injury).

Anyway thanks for your post... gives me some stuff to think about for sure.

On another note, has anyone tried those ultralite tuners with any sucess? I've been thinking about unstringing my bass and taking the harware off the headstock to see realistically how much of a difference it will make.

all the best,
Andy

 

[bass349]

seems to me that it may be a different issue, as if it balances like that, then the neck wont dive. if the balance point is between the 2 straps (put a vertical line through each strap, the balance point should be between these lines to balance) then it should be stable. its torque from gravity acting on the instrument.

are you checking the balance without hardware (tuners can be heavy)? if its still giving you issues then maybe its probably something else, maybe how you hold the bass or something.

hey mate.. have a read of pilotjoes post that i quoted above.. i believe there is more going on than simply finding a balance point on the strap - although that is certainly an important part of it!

I echo ARX's experience - all of my basses balance "correctly" when i hold it at the upper horn strap pin. Not so much when I strap them on or attempt to balance them in my lap.

 

[dblbass]

On another note, has anyone tried those ultralite tuners with any sucess? I've been thinking about unstringing my bass and taking the harware off the headstock to see realistically how much of a difference it will make.

Gotoh is making some new ultralight tuners that are amazing. They weigh hardly anything. Ive only seen them in a dark chrome colour but you can probably get them in whatever colour you like.

 

[erikbojerik]

 

[Chebass88]

Okay, see if you follow me on this: sitting down the bass is on your lap. I'm guessing you'd agree that's what is supporting the majority of the weight. If you put the strap on while sitting down, the weight of the bass is still being supported by your lap. How much pull on your shoulder do you think you'd experience (or have you tried this?)?

Not necessarily - it depends on how high you wear it. If I lean back ever so slightly, the strap holds the bass, not my right leg. The difference between the shoulder holding the weight & the leg is very small for me, and change as I shift in the seat.

imp.

 

[Chebass88]

When the bass is hanging on you, there are four principle forces acting on the bass.
1. weight: the force of the bass, due to gravity. Acts in a straight down direction, always. Acts is if it were concentrated at a point known as the center of mass. This point will be closer to the head or the tail of the instrument, depending on the design and woods and hardware moving that point one way or the other.
2. belly force: the bass rests against the body--the other side of this is that the body is pressing "outwards" against the bass. This force will be nearly straight outwards for most (human) body shapes. If you have a large, low-slung gut, this force could be somewhat upwards also.
3. upper strap force: the support force applied to the bass body by the strap at the horn. This is mostly upwards, but can vary; for a person who's big front-to-back, there can be a significant"backward" component. Also, depending on the body design, and also on how wide the particular human body is, the force can have some component out towards the headstock (short horn and/or wide-shouldered and -necked guy), or towards the tail (longer horn and/or skinny guy).
4. lower strap force: upper strap force: the support force applied to the bass body by the strap at the tail. This one is not what one might think at first. It has some upward component, but this can be very variable according to how high you wear the bass; and it has a large backward (towards the person's back) component, that is largely countered by the belly force. There's also a component that at least with most body designs, goes towards the center of the body of the bass. The upward component will be fairly little if you wear the bass high, and the strap barely goes under your armpit; and will be very large if yo wear the bass slung low, metal style.

So, there are actually four forces, in a 3D geometry that varies according to strap configuration and human body shape. And I can imaging a bass neck diving on a skinny guy who wears it high, and not diving at all on a larger guy with a longer strap/lower playing position.

This is the most logical answer so far - the force balance. Thank you sir for posting a quantifiable post in a sea of opinions.

 

[erikbojerik]

 

[black_labb]

Not so much when I strap them on or attempt to balance them in my lap.

sorry, didnt realise this was refering to the balance when sitting. how the lower bout is placed can effect its balance when it is rested on the lap. i was thinking standing up where the only points where the bass is connected is the straps.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Not necessarily - it depends on how high you wear it. If I lean back ever so slightly, the strap holds the bass, not my right leg. The difference between the shoulder holding the weight & the leg is very small for me, and change as I shift in the seat.

imp.

The point was strapping the bass on in the same position as seated.

Yes, if you lean back you'll put pressure on your strap. Leaning back had nothing to do with what we were talking about.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Can't figure out how to avoid this thread? It's actually pretty simple.


FYI: When you think people are beating a dead horse and you have no further interest in the conversation, don't continue to go to the thread. Then you can shut up and play yer guitar in peace.

 

[erikbojerik]

I just noticed those Batman tuner buttons on Frank's LPC for the first time...a definite design flaw that takes away from Frank's street cred IMO. :scowl:

Although he earns it back with his brass nut.

 

[Arx]

seems to me that it may be a different issue, as if it balances like that, then the neck wont dive. if the balance point is between the 2 straps (put a vertical line through each strap, the balance point should be between these lines to balance) then it should be stable. its torque from gravity acting on the instrument.

are you checking the balance without hardware (tuners can be heavy)? if its still giving you issues then maybe its probably something else, maybe how you hold the bass or something.

if you grab it by the upper strap button alone, you're usually quite a ways ahead of the CG (centre of gravity), and the bass will swing up until the body swings over enough that the CG is in line with the point you're holding it by.

If you grab by both buttons, as a strap does, you're lifting from 2 points, and the force on the rear one usually has some upward component, which will shift the CG towards the head. I think only the worst neck dive cases will even be close to balanced if you grab them by only the top button. most any other will point at the sky.

hey mate.. have a read of pilotjoes post that i quoted above.. i believe there is more going on than simply finding a balance point on the strap - although that is certainly an important part of it!

I echo ARX's experience - all of my basses balance "correctly" when i hold it at the upper horn strap pin. Not so much when I strap them on or attempt to balance them in my lap.

I think finding the balance point IS all there is to it, It's just that calculating or measuring that balance point isn't really as easy as it may initially look.

Lap balance is a different story if you hold the bass on your leg. the strap doesn't have nearly as much effect as the shape of the body.

As we've both experienced, the top strap button alone is only one component of the overall balance.

It would be interesting to hear how everyone else's balances. if you grab the button itself (not the whole top horn, you don't want to apply any torque with your wrist) and lift, does anyone have a bass that doesn't point up?
If so, can you actually play it? Seems to me that would cause HUGE neck dive.

-Nick