Compensated Nuts

[Hopkins]

They affect the entire tuning, across the board. It changes the scale length very slightly, just like you would when you intonate at the bridge... Basically moving the nut from what would be the ZERO position to a VERY SLIGHT sharp or flat position.. When the string is tuned open with the new compensated scale length the entire string is changed in tension so therefore the entire fretting area of that string is changed as well. In other words no, it does not only affect the first fret, and yes it does do something past it. The desired affect is to lessen the sharpness or even flatness that happens when you fret a note.. If you were to tune the string closed at an octive or just where ever it would change the tuning slightly of the open strings and lower notes... vice versa ect ect.

That said, is it worth it?? I cant say in bass applications.. maybe when doing some chording with a 6 string or similar when you actually put the notes side by side and the sharp or flat would ring out to the ear... In guitar applications it makes a HUGE difference...

It still does not correct the fact that a guitar and bass with straight frets is not an even tempered instrument, and that the notes between the octaves will always be slightly out of tune. It is possible that they may help temperament on the first fret, but they will not change the fact that other frets are going to be out of tune.

 

[scottyd]

It still does not correct the fact that a guitar and bass with straight frets is not an even tempered instrument, and that the notes between the octaves will always be slightly out of tune. It is possible that they may help temperament on the first fret, but they will not change the fact that other frets are going to be out of tune.

You're absolutely correct it wont change the fact that other frets are going to be out of slightly out of tune, I don't think anything will. But it will make them slightly better at some locations..and it depends on player.. how often do they stay in the upper octaves? realistically, me personally when I play not that much.. a few slides or licks here and there but most of the time I'm below the 12th fret.. I've seen others that spend WAY more time there... Its a trade off I suppose.

 

[Hopkins]

You're absolutely correct it wont change the fact that other frets are going to be out of slightly out of tune, I don't think anything will. But it will make them slightly better at some locations..and it depends on player.. how often do they stay in the upper octaves? realistically, me personally when I play not that much.. a few slides or licks here and there but most of the time I'm below the 12th fret.. I've seen others that spend WAY more time there... Its a trade off I suppose.

Well, there are those crazy looking true temper guitars, and classical guitars with even tempered frets. Personally I think the uneven temperament gives a guitar more character in its sound.

 

[iiipopes]

It still does not correct the fact that a guitar and bass with straight frets is not an even tempered instrument, and that the notes between the octaves will always be slightly out of tune. It is possible that they may help temperament on the first fret, but they will not change the fact that other frets are going to be out of tune.

Um, with due respect, I do not believe you understand equal temperament. The whole premise of modern fretted instruments is that the frets are computed and placed to regular progressive logarithmic spacing of twelve "equal" half steps to the octave, so that all frets in all keys are usable and therefore theoretically equally tempered. The entire discussion of this thread is about how the physical limitations of strings pull notes sharp so that they have to be compensated to get to as close to the equally tempered ideal as possible. Since nothing is perfect, no instrument will ever be perfectly in tune, but this is the premise.

 

[Hopkins]

Um, with due respect, I do not believe you understand equal temperament. The whole premise of modern fretted instruments is that the frets are computed and placed to regular progressive logarithmic spacing of twelve "equal" half steps to the octave, so that all frets in all keys are usable and therefore theoretically equally tempered. The entire discussion of this thread is about how the physical limitations of strings pull notes sharp so that they have to be compensated to get to as close to the equally tempered ideal as possible. Since nothing is perfect, no instrument will ever be perfectly in tune, but this is the premise.

Actually I think I have a pretty good grasp on even temperament and it has nothing to do "the rule of 18" fret positioning . Temperament is how in tune the notes are between the octaves, considering different tensions, and gauges of strings it is impossible to have an even tempered instrument with straight frets. Which is what led to the invention of crazy looking guitars like this

or like this

Compensated nuts help temperament issues on the first fret, and possibly slightly on the next few frets. It has nothing to do with fretting pulling the note sharp, that is remedied by intonation and action adjustments.

 

[Manton Customs]

Um, with due respect, I do not believe you understand equal temperament. The whole premise of modern fretted instruments is that the frets are computed and placed to regular progressive logarithmic spacing of twelve "equal" half steps to the octave, so that all frets in all keys are usable and therefore theoretically equally tempered. The entire discussion of this thread is about how the physical limitations of strings pull notes sharp so that they have to be compensated to get to as close to the equally tempered ideal as possible. Since nothing is perfect, no instrument will ever be perfectly in tune, but this is the premise.

Here is the answer, these ARE perfect and sound fantastic. One of two I'm working on currently.

 

[Means2nEnd]

So you buy the pre-fretted fingerboards here?

Invalid Link Removed

 

[Manton Customs]

No, that one is a pre made neck which I'm building a body for. The other is an 8 string guitar commission which I sent the neck I made off to Sweden for the work to be done, I have played it now and it really does sound different!

 

[Means2nEnd]

You can order just the fretboard from the site but it's only for 6 string guitars and only rosewood I think..

 

[Manton Customs]

Yeah, there are quite a few limitations on the fingerboards though they do Maple also. You'll also have to be pretty good at crowning too (you can't use a normal crowning file obviously) if you are doing the fretwork yourself.

 

[scottyd]

You can intonate in more than one place than the bridge. The nut does just that, but on a smaller scale.

 

[Robert Canfield]

I don't need perfect temperament, but sometimes the first 5 frets scream at me. A little compensation is better than none. A balance needs to be struck and training my ear to "accept being out of tune" is not acceptable.

 

[Manton Customs]

I don't need perfect temperament, but sometimes the first 5 frets scream at me. A little compensation is better than none. A balance needs to be struck and training my ear to "accept being out of tune" is not acceptable.

Is it possible the setup could be off? A poorly cut nut (for example being too high) will throw intonation off even more than usual. Or you just have very good pitch

 

[Robert Canfield]

Here is the answer, these ARE perfect and sound fantastic. One of two I'm working on currently.

Did you do the fret work on that?

 

[Manton Customs]

No, that one is a pre made neck which I'm building a body for. The other is an 8 string guitar commission which I sent the neck I made off to Sweden for the work to be done, I have played it now and it really does sound different!

Did you do the fret work on that?

Nope, see above.

 

[Hopkins]

You can intonate in more than one place than the bridge. The nut does just that, but on a smaller scale.

Yeah exactly, I just feel the compensated nut does very little in the overall scheme of things. Like I said before, the slightly out of tune warble you get on some chords gives a guitar a tonal character that I actually prefer. An even tempered guitar, at least from sound clips and videos that I have heard, seem kind of sterile to me but I have never experienced one in person.

@Manton Customs, please do a build thread on that guitar. It would be very interesting. It seems that that neck would have some very specific requirements, like a specific string set for consistent tension, and action dialed into a specific height.

 

[Manton Customs]

Sure will do. The 8 string will be finished within the month and I've taken pics throughout so will do a build thread when it's finished. Figured I can get away with putting that up here seeing as it's only a note and a half away from bass territory .

 

[Hopkins]

Sure will do. The 8 string will be finished within the month and I've taken pics throughout so will do a build thread when it's finished. Figured I can get away with putting that up here seeing as it's only a note and a half away from bass territory .

I enjoy a good guitar build as much as a bass, I think that feeling is pretty universal here

 

[iiipopes]

Actually I think I have a pretty good grasp on even temperament and it has nothing to do "the rule of 18" fret positioning . Temperament is how in tune the notes are between the octaves, considering different tensions, and gauges of strings it is impossible to have an even tempered instrument with straight frets. Which is what led to the invention of crazy looking guitars like this
or like this: [pictures redacted for economy of bandwidth]

Compensated nuts help temperament issues on the first fret, and possibly slightly on the next few frets. It has nothing to do with fretting pulling the note sharp, that is remedied by intonation and action adjustments.

Actually, the "Rule of 18" is not a good rule for getting frets in tune. It is an approximation based on historical expediency. The actual mathematical pitch relationship for equally tempered tuning, whether fretted instruments or keyboards, is the logarithmic function of 2^1/12, or approximately the ratio of 1.059631/1 for each successive fret or semitone pitch, and therefore the inverse of that ratio for fret placement.

We do agree that string stretch is an issue, wherever it is. Whether this is compensated on the lower frets by nut shims, overall fret placement, action height, scale adjustments, bridge adjustments, or any other method, the goal is still to try to get the 2^1/12 relationship between semitones across the range of the instrument so it can play in all keys with no more or less "in-tune-ness" or "out-of-tune-ness" in all of the twelve major keys and twelve minor keys.

We also agree on the interactive nature of a guitar scaling and compensating. You may note above I also stated that if the intonation on the first few frets is compensated with nut adjustments, it shortens the overall scale, effectively moving the frets back, and the action may need to be raised to actually induce a little more string stretch in the middle of the scale so the middle frets do not intonate flat as a result of the nut adjustments.

The drawback of an equally tempered system is that nothing is truly in tune save the octaves: perfect fifths are slightly flat, perfect fourths are slightly sharp, major thirds are very sharp, and so on.

Ironically, with gut strings, the "Rule of 18" actually compensates for intonation rather well, due to the nature of gut strings.

To compare "equal temperament" to other forms of temperaments, which favor some keys at the expense of others, and your being in the UK, I encourage you to digest the writings of Thomas Young, and the debates among Samual Sebastian Wesley, Edward Hopkins, and later Henry Willis, who have set forth ad nauseum the finer points of various temperaments and how they are achieved. Even though these authors focused on keyboard instruments, especially the pipe organ, their points are well received when it comes to fretted stringed instrument designs and approaches to the theory of intonation.

 

[Hopkins]

Well, I am not in the UK, but I am going there in June

The rule of 18 is actually the rule of 17.817, which is pretty accurate for placing straight frets. Like I said before, a compensated nut may help the inherent issue that is built into a standard guitar, but it only slightly lessens the problem, it doesn't solve it. I personally don't think it does very little past the first two frets, mainly the first fret. To me its a solution to a problem that didn't really need solving. I find them to be more of a selling point than a real feature, but that is just one mans opinion.

Comparing a guitar to something like a piano is slightly apples to oranges. A piano is one string per key that is tuned to a certain note and its the only note it plays. A guitar is a different animal because fretting changes the length and vibration of the string, which is the reason for the inherently imperfect design. A piano tuned to an equal temperament at 440hz has the string at a constant length and vibration pattern. I don't know much about a pipe organ, but assuming that its one pipe per key, I would guess they are tuned similar to a piano, but I honestly have no idea.