Complex bass and too many tones!

[KaraQ]

Hmmm...interesting opinions, all valid (probably ).

My opinion is that, for me, two pickups & three knobs gives me all the on-bass tonal variation I need most of the time:

 

[scuzzy]

 

[OogieWaWa]

To each their own. But if you 'two to three knobbers' can play all your material with just "My tone" that just seems strange to me, but I'm happy for you. I would appreciate the simplicity in certain situations and probably go that way.

For covers like we do, I'm not so sure about that, though. I like a wide variety of genres, and since my two band mates do also, our setlist for an evening is an adventure all over the place musically, depending on the crowd. It's fun, we just play stuff we like and believe the crowd will, too, which they usually seem to appreciate. And each genre may have a different traditional bass tone/sound that goes along with it. The original artists obviously didn't all use the same bass. I can't imagine using the same tone all night long in our situation.

Although 80% of the changes I make are with the Treble pot (i.e. blues=low, country and most rock=low to middle, pop=most of the way up depending, and some classic rock all the way), I also like to make some changes at the bass for the rest to get close to the desired tone.

On my L2K, I have a basic starting point that I like that allows me to work from, freeing the treble pot to make the bulk of the changes; but maybe I'll use the bridge pup occasionally for some bite, maybe go parallel instead of series, for one song I'll drop some bass out, maybe go active1 or active2 (+treble) for certain songs or a few solos respectively. There's even a few songs where I'll go to back my AI amp, which I set for the room after making my standard bass setup, and use a nice 'scooped' tone. AND THEN i PUT IT BACK and make the next change. Occasionally it'll be changing two things.

Between that and playing style changes I think I do justice to most of our material using a simple method. And playing style probably makes at least as much difference as everything else combined. My band mates have told me they think it's great.

It's NOT confusing, it's NOT fiddling around constantly, it's NOT not knowing what I need as some have implied. I know exactly what I want for every song we can do. Just like knowing if I'll be in EADG, DADG or CADG (double detuner.) If you know your instrument well, and it gives you some options, why not use them when appropriate? So yeah, I like a bass with a lot of variables available, AND can use them. If I played all one genre, you bet I'd go for the simpler setup.

 

[Hypercaffium]

To each their own. But if you 'two to three knobbers' can play all your material with just "My tone" that just seems strange to me, but I'm happy for you. I would appreciate the simplicity in certain situations and probably go that way.

For covers like we do, I'm not so sure about that, though. I like a wide variety of genres, and since my two band mates do also, our setlist for an evening is an adventure all over the place musically, depending on the crowd. It's fun, we just play stuff we like and believe the crowd will, too, which they usually seem to appreciate. And each genre may have a different traditional bass tone/sound that goes along with it. The original artists obviously didn't all use the same bass. I can't imagine using the same tone all night long in our situation.

Although 80% of the changes I make are with the Treble pot (i.e. blues=low, country and most rock=low to middle, pop=most of the way up depending, and some classic rock all the way), I also like to make some changes at the bass for the rest to get close to the desired tone.

On my L2K, I have a basic starting point that I like that allows me to work from, freeing the treble pot to make the bulk of the changes; but maybe I'll use the bridge pup occasionally for some bite, maybe go parallel instead of series, for one song I'll drop some bass out, maybe go active1 or active2 (+treble) for certain songs or a few solos respectively. There's even a few songs where I'll go to back my AI amp, which I set for the room after making my standard bass setup, and use a nice 'scooped' tone. AND THEN i PUT IT BACK and make the next change. Occasionally it'll be changing two things.

Between that and playing style changes I think I do justice to most of our material using a simple method. And playing style probably makes at least as much difference as everything else combined. My band mates have told me they think it's great.

It's NOT confusing, it's NOT fiddling around constantly, it's NOT not knowing what I need as some have implied. I know exactly what I want for every song we can do. Just like knowing if I'll be in EADG, DADG or CADG (double detuner.) If you know your instrument well, and it gives you some options, why not use them when appropriate? So yeah, I like a bass with a lot of variables available, AND can use them. If I played all one genre, you bet I'd go for the simpler setup.

I have a similar approach, but different.
I'm currently playing Post Punk/New Wave stuff with my band and the first thing I do is finding a good starting point to work from, but I always do that with a passive (J) bass and a preamp (amp's pre is bypassed), at least for this project. I have other basses (one is active) but I use them for different projects.
I set all the knobs on my bass to 100% and find a good all around tone that works well with the room and in the general mix. Tone knob, pickup combinations and left hand technique/positioning on a J bass offers a suffiecient palette of sounds for what I'm doing right now imho, plus I can switch preamp channels and/or add effects pedals when needed. I always set my effects pedals in the same exact way for the current project, so adding them is not an issue.
An active bass with 3 band EQ into a tube crunchy amp set flat would work great too for this project, I did some tests and currently prefer the passive J approach.

 

[bogwart]

Again with all the "audience can't tell " stuff? Haven't I lectured you guys enough on how lame that is?

Curious...I haven't seen your posts on the topic, but do you think the audience can tell? I've never had someone say "on 'X' song when you flipped from passive split coil to active humbucker I was BLOWN AWAY"....

 

[JimmyM]

Curious...I haven't seen your posts on the topic, but do you think the audience can tell? I've never had someone say "on 'X' song when you flipped from passive split coil to active humbucker I was BLOWN AWAY"....

That doesn't mean they can't tell that your sound has changed. And even beginner guitar players can tell the difference between the sound of the neck and Bridge pickup on a guitar. Why wouldn't some of them be able to tell that you switch from single coil to humbucker or passive to active on your bass? It's a well-known fact that the vast majority of musical instrument sales are through hobbyists. And hobbyists go to shows. They may not comment on every single little thing you do, but they can certainly tell when you have a different sound.

 

[Joe Nerve]

OK, I see this pretty often here that people don't want a bass with too many controls and/or pickups because its too complicated to use live. Most recently with the Bongo vs Big Al thread but it comes up a lot in many other comparisons.

My perspective is that with a bass with lots of controls and pickups (such as my Bongo HH) is that I can simply find a great unique sound, adjust my eq to my liking and have it set and forget it. Same with my SR HH. There's no rule that you have to constantly adjust the EQ and pickup settings to try to cover all of the different standard bass sounds. I just don't see how someone can say having too many tonal options is a negative. It's only a negative if you can't settle on it and are constantly changing. I have multiple stingrays so I can have 1 setup just on the bridge pickup, and then use my HH with both pickups and eqed just how I like it and it is a completely different flavour.

Anyone else feel this way? Why the hate for having options?

I once wouldn't/couldn't consider using anything than other than my Bongo, Big Al, or Stingray HS.

Today I use only passive basses.

Here are some reasons for that:

1. When an entire band is using IEMs, subtle changes in EQ can become very annoying to the rest of the band.

2. A decent passive bass works in all settings and seems to always sit nicely in the mix - no matter what you do with it. Active basses take tweaking to work in various settings. A KILLER TONE in one venue can blow a band out in another, as well as get completely lost in a mix. Where one stands on the stage, whether the stage is wooden or not, and tons of other factors go into how "WE" tweak our tone. I've found its close to impossible to get a tone I love, that will also work excellently with everyone else - including whoever is running front of house (who ultimately has the last say, anyhow).

3. When playing a variety of genres and no down time in between tunes, its much easier to only need deal with a volume and tone control.

Ehh.... I could go on, but those are the basics.

Right now, the only way I'd go back to my Bongo or one of my other super versatile basses if if I were playing my own music. Making versatile, active basses work well for covers or other people's music, in other people's bands (especially when I'm getting paid well to keep everyone happy) is something I don't have a head for anymore.

 

[bogwart]

That doesn't mean they can't tell that your sound has changed. And even beginner guitar players can tell the difference between the sound of the neck and Bridge pickup on a guitar. Why wouldn't some of them be able to tell that you switch from single coil to humbucker or passive to active on your bass? It's a well-known fact that the vast majority of musical instrument sales are through hobbyists. And hobbyists go to shows. They may not comment on every single little thing you do, but they can certainly tell when you have a different sound.

Ok, that's fair. That's why I said "probably not" because in truth I have no idea if anyone other than me notices the differences in my tone. I do, and that difference from song to song makes me happy.

 

[JimmyM]

Ok, that's fair. That's why I said "probably not" because in truth I have no idea if anyone other than me notices the differences in my tone. I do, and that difference from song to song makes me happy.

That's really all that matters. As long as you are happy with what you do and don't just do or not do it because you think the audience is stupid. As I always like to say, play to the drunks in the back and you will only appeal to the drunks in the back.

 

[DJ Bebop]

Not quite as cool but....
View attachment 3960447

Nice!
Reminds me a bit of this:

A GUITAR’S JOURNEY
The saga of Jack Casady's Guild Starfire bass
by Loren Watts

So here we go, a good news story about a guitar, a story of good luck, a story of good timing, a story of a man who had something precious stolen and returned to him, 47 years later. There are five players involved in this story, Jack Casady; bass guitarist from the band Jefferson Airplane and Hot Tuna, and probably a few more I’m sure, next is Jorma Kaukonen; lead guitarist and vocals with Jefferson Airplane, and Hot Tuna, and also owner operator of the Fur Peace Ranch Guitar Workshop. The next player would be Don Aters, well known for his Rock band Photography and a documentary writer of the 60’s music scene. Moving on close to home, Seattle, Washington we have Leroy Webb; bass guitarist with the band Shaker featuring Diane Powell followed by the band Hands, and other local bands, last of all is myself Loren Watts; lead guitar and backup vocals with the band Hands and a few other bands that included Leroy Webb.

We’ll have to start now in the year 1969 after Woodstock, in the Seattle Center Coliseum, I believe the concerts there were called Teenfairs back then. There would be a few local bands playing outside during the day, followed by a national act inside the Coliseum. On October 11th, 1969, after having played Woodstock in August, Jefferson Airplane played at the Seattle Coliseum. Jack would have his beautiful custom made Guild Starfire bass guitar that was built in 1967, stolen along with a bag of Jorma’s personal belongings containing his passport.

Fast forward 9 years to 1978 my band Hands is looking for a new bass player, and we find a great one with Leroy Webb answering an ad in the paper. A year later, after preparing to bring the band Hands to the Northwest music scene, Leroy takes a job at our local horse racing track, Longacres, to keep himself going since musicians didn’t always have a steady income. During his days as a cook there he had told fellow employees he was a bass player, and an employee brought him a bass to look at and see if he was interested in buying it. It was a very beautiful guitar, a Guild Starfire with a lot of knobs, that made an electronics kind of guy like Leroy say yes I’ll buy it! He laid out $1800 to purchase that bad boy! That was a lot of money back then, and I don’t know how he was able to eat after the purchase. Leroy is the kind of guy that will buy cool stuff and then just hang on to it forever. A collector of fine things we’ll say. So this beautiful guitar was set aside for long periods at a time, being brought out to play once in a great while. I don’t think he ever played it at a gig. So from this point in time, in 1981, I would have a serious motorcycle accident that would disable me and cause me to take a new direction in life, video production, Leroy would play in a number of different versions of the band Hands, then in 1986 the band Hands came to an end, and I would see him just once in a while until 1995 when I decided to start a new original band called 3 Hands. Once again Leroy and I were back together again. This is where I stop talking about the bands and move forward to a new world of technology where people who might not ever have become friends, can meet in the world of Facebook, and talk about the past.

This is almost the home stretch. Jumping ahead to December 2015. While surfing thru many Facebook friends posts, (I follow things that are interesting to me like awesome pictures of famed musicians from the 60’s), I came across some pictures that were obviously taken by an extremely talented Photographer. The name of that man is Don Aters. I saw images of Janis Joplin and Big Brother and the Holding Company, Crosby, Stills and Nash, Neil Young, Joe Cocker, Jerry Garcia and the Grateful Dead, our own local guitarist Jerry Miller, Steven Tyler, and so many more images I was just blown away. Now also included, was Jefferson Airplane. At this point, seeing Don Aters amazing photographs, I decided I would send a friend request to him. I was happily surprised to have him friend me the next day. I think I was following his posts for a couple weeks, and somehow, I can’t remember how I came across it, who posted it, it may well have been Don that shared this post, but what I saw was Jack Casady, bassist for Jefferson Airplane, playing this cool bass guitar at Woodstock with the Airplane. Above the picture was a little story Jack had wrote saying “Stolen 1967 Modified Guild Starfire bass, Bass guitar was stolen from me in 1969, in Seattle, Washington after a Jefferson Airplane show… I would love to get it back… The second version resides in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, carving on electronics module cover done by Owsley Stanley… as well as electronics by Ron Wickersham … Headstock inlay, designed by Margaretta Kaukonen “… I only had to look once closely at the headstock and small wood plate in the body to know that this is the bass guitar Leroy has had since 1979!!! I saw this post January 5th 2016, the evening it was posted! The next day, I make the call to Leroy to tell him what I had come across! I asked him, would you like me to try to get it back to Jack and let him know you have his long lost ( 47 years to be precise ) Guild Starfire bass guitar ? He said yes go for it! Well, I contacted Don Aters January 8th, and sent a message to Jorma Kaukonen that same day, on a Facebook page that I found out later, was not a site that he runs. January 9th rolls around and I still have not heard from Jorma, and I get back to Don, who gets with Jorma and gives me an e-mail address on Jan. 13th, so I shoot an e-mail to Jorma. Now I get an e-mail back from Jorma the next day. He says Jack will flip when he finds out! Well the waiting game plays for a bit because we had to say goodbye to our Siberian Husky Nokki, then some good news for Jefferson Airplane, a notice of a well-deserved Grammy for lifetime achievement! So we are now at Jan. 21st and have decided to just have Jack told by Jorma that a stranger named Loren Watts is going to be calling him with some important
information, so he needs to unblock his phone for the call. Some time went by, taking us to January 28th, a sad day for Jefferson Airplane members and fans. Paul Kantner passes after a short stay in the hospital from a second heart attack and the complications afterwards. Now that would be more than enough sadness for one day, but there was more bad news to come that day, Signe Anderson Ettlin, the first singer for Jefferson Airplane, also passes that same day ! So knowing there’s a lot of sorrow surrounding the deaths of their friends, I decided to sit back and let some time pass. February 1st, I get another e-mail from Jorma asking what we were going to do. I was kind of tired of just e-mailing Jorma, and finally said please just give me a call, its tough feeling emotions from just typing back and forth. I knew it was that these guys don’t know me and have to be private about their lives, but I just wanted to hear a voice! That day finally came February 2nd 2016! Long story isn’t it? Well try being Jorma, Don, Jack, Leroy, and I thru all this, there was every emotion you can think of coming down upon all these players, and let me tell you there were extreme highs and extreme lows for everyone. Ok, next paragraph should be shorter, we are almost done …

February 2nd, 2016 7:15am my phone rings, I am sound asleep, and I just reach over to my phone and hit the ‘I’m not answering button’. Well, I remember the last thing I did last night, was ask Jorma to call me. So I sit up, grab my glasses, and look at the number for that call. It’s from Jorma’s home town, and he’s left a message and sent an e-mail apologizing for the early call. So I get up and give a call back and for the first time, I’m now talking to Jorma. I thought I would be a bit star struck, but he made me feel like we were old friends already. I really enjoyed talking with him! So we set the plan in motion. When he hung up, he called Jack Casady, and told him that this guy Loren Watts was going to call him, and he needed to answer the call and talk to me. I gave it a few minutes, and made the call to Jack! Now I admit I was a little afraid, not knowing Jack, him not knowing me, or why I would need to talk to him early in the morning. I just set all thoughts aside and said, Jack, my name is Loren Watts, and I know where your Guild Starfire Custom Bass is, and would like to reunite the guitar with you as soon as possible! To be honest, I really don’t remember the next words he said to me, but enough was said for Jack to know this was a good news day for him! We talked for quite a bit after I got my nerves under control, and just like with Jorma, it started to feel like I was just talking with an old friend. We talked about our animals, sent pictures back and forth of our animals, and I sent him a picture of his guitar as it looks now. The guitar had been re-finished after it was stolen, but it was still in pretty good condition for 47 years later!

So I was asked by Jorma to give him a call, just as soon as I was done talking to Jack, and I did just that right away. I make the call, and a lady answers, and introduces herself as Vanessa Kaukonen, and she says well he wanted me to answer if Loren called, so she took me to Jorma in the shower! Well at this point we are old friends anyway right! So I gave Jorma the scoop on my talk with Jack, and set about my next move to be made. Now there was only getting Leroy (remember Leroy?) Jacks phone number so he could talk directly to his favorite bass player in the world, and they could then work out the shipping details. So there was a bit of time for getting the bass back to Jack ASAP. Leroy thought he could just ship from his work, but that didn’t work as they had quit using FedEx. So, I took a little drive down to Leroy’s shop the next day and we made it a day of fun, taking some brand new pictures of the bass and Leroy and I getting it ready to ship home to Jack! We took some pictures then Leroy Ceremoniously put the guitar into my passenger seat, and seat belted it in for its final journey from Seattle to Los Angeles! I drove to Federal Way FedEx, where I showed the guitar to this nice young lady, and explained the importance of this guitar making it to Jack in perfect condition. She understood and said it would cost a bit more but she could do it. Do you think we are done with this story? No not quite! We tracked this guitar constantly as it traveled to all the stopping points along the way. It finally arrived safe and sound to Jack, and I only wish I could have been there to see his face as he opened the case! Jack did of course call with the arrival of his bass! Ok... almost done!

To bring this story about a guitar, and 5 guys to a close, the following week, I had the pleasure of watching Jack Casady, Marty Balin, China Kantner, and others arrive at the Grammy Awards Ceremony to be honored with the Lifetime Achievement Award in music!!!

 

[dune]

Passive pickups, active pre with passive switching. I want the best, of, both worlds...