Confessions of a Flatwound convert...

[blowabs]

Dog

I have Chromes on my GL Jazz...."lovin' it"....(esp. the drummer)....but, am i missing something by not putting my extra set of Chromes on one of my P/J's????

 

[MarkusBass]

Flats and P basses work great together. I'd give it a shot.

 

[blowabs]

Flats and P basses work great together. I'd give it a shot.

why so much more with a P pup?? ....b/c of the nature of the deep sounding pup, Markus?

 

[seanm]

why so much more with a P pup?? ....b/c of the nature of the deep sounding pup, Markus?

I suspect it is more because people are used to a bright tone from jazz basses and expect a, for lack of a better word, "bass" tone from P basses

 

[Sundogue]

Dog

I have Chromes on my GL Jazz...."lovin' it"....(esp. the drummer)....but, am i missing something by not putting my extra set of Chromes on one of my P/J's????

Not necessarily, and only you can decide for yourself.

But, the P-Bass (the pick-up itself along with it's placement, the simple bridge design, etc.) is inherently strong in the mids, so it really punches hard with flats. Of course it punches hard with rounds too.

Just imagine the sound you'd get from this setup...

Fender Precision strung with Flats going into an ALL Tube head and either the original 810 or 215's, cranked and driving a song with a solid drummer.

We're talking heavyweight notes here, not the tippy-tap of a lightweight soloist. PUNCH-YOU-IN-THE-CHEST kind of notes.

Your call.

 

[p-bass]

Not necessarily, and only you can decide for yourself.

But, the P-Bass pickup is inherently strong in the mids, so it really punches hard with flats. Of course it punches hard with rounds too.

Just imagine the sound you'd get from this setup...

Fender Precision strung with Flats going into an ALL Tube head and either the original 810 or 215's, cranked and driving a song with a solid drummer.

We're talking heavyweight notes here, not the tippy-tap of a lightweight soloist. PUNCH-YOU-IN-THE-CHEST kind of notes.

Your call.

Ain't that the truth..a P-Bass with Flats will "Kick You In The Chest" ! Sometimes it's the best the "Bass" world has to offer ! Peace..Steve

 

[blowabs]

Ain't that the truth..a P-Bass with Flats will "Kick You In The Chest" ! Sometimes it's the best the "Bass" world has to offer ! Peace..Steve

Thanks guys (all)...this thread is great....

I will put the Chromes on the P/J tonight during the Penguin/Red Wing game .... then i will expect pure thunder! >

I may try and bring it to the next rehearsal if the DiMarzio pups and flats dont shake the floor too much....we have alot of singers (leads and bkgd) on stage at the same time on most R&R songs we do.

 

[Sundogue]

Thanks guys (all)...this thread is great....

I will put the Chromes on the P/J tonight during the Penguin/Red Wing game .... then i will expect pure thunder! >

I may try and bring it to the next rehearsal if the DiMarzio pups and flats dont shake the floor too much....we have alot of singers (leads and bkgd) on stage at the same time on most R&R songs we do.

My band is a five piece, and we all sing lead and harmony so there is almost always a group of vocals at any given time. Plus we have two guitarists and a keyboardist, so there is a lot of sonic saturation going on.

Rounds work in that situation, but flats work better for me. With flats it seems I have my own sonic space as my bass has it's own low end distinct sound. There is no mistaking the bass for what it is and it never sounds like it is just a part of the sonic mush of guitars, vocals and keys up in that already too full area of mid-range. With flats it seems to sit down with the drums better in the rhythm section with no need to cut through to be heard.

Think about it...drums don't need to "cut through" and neither do guitars. So what is it about bass players feeling they need to cut through the "mix" to be heard? What part of the mix is it that is preventing us from being heard?

IMO, that part of the mix is exactly where the guitars are already over saturating and those tones bass players want heard (but can't) are precisely those overtones and bright sounds roundwounds give that flats don't.

It appears to me that for all the love of those zingy, bright, crisp piano-like tones roundwounds have, it only get lost "in the mix" anyway and most roundwound users waste too much time and energy fighting that phenomenon, struggling to "find their tone" and end up pushing too much of those ugly, honking mids in an effort just to "cut through".

With flats there simply is no need for that because that area roundwound players are fighting to get heard is exactly what flats lack anyway. But what flats do excel at is providing that thick, smack-you-in-the-chest bass sound that is clearly in it's own sonic space where no one else goes.

And I think that is precisely what I feel I'm missing when playing alone using flats. There are no guitars filling that void when I'm playing alone, so my strings don't sound the way my mind is programmed to expect. Alone, I'm expecting to hear those tones but they aren't there, which is fine in a group mix because my bass doesn't need them in that setting as the guitars provide it. Which is why in some situations rounds are better; i.e. - When there is not enough guitars or keys filling that sonic area, and the roundwound "tones" can be heard easily.

To me, another advantage of flats is that they allow me to actually cut my low end more and still have it be heard and felt. This is probably due to the stronger fundamental flats provide. With rounds, I've had to accentuate the mids (to cut through and hear that roundwound sizzle) but also boost the lows to compensate for (or warm up) that annoying mid tone and give a stronger "bass" sound, which only robs my head of power and can end up saturating the stage with unnecessary low end if I'm not careful with it. Since switching to flats I've noticed my amp doesn't work as hard to provide the same volume of low end tone. And based on the digital readout of my output gain, I'm pushing my amp about half as hard and yet hear myself better.

 

[Sundogue]

In the quest to be heard in a live mix, there are some differences between roundwound and flatwound strings that I think are huge in terms of what we seek.

Let's look at the sonic strengths and weaknesses inherent in each string type (this is not a good/bad comparison, nor is this about how flats or rounds are better or worse than the other. It's just something to compare the inherent differences in each string type)...

Flats - Strengths - Stronger fundamental, quicker decay.
Flats - Weakness - Not as bright, less sustain, less harmonics, quicker decay (strength or weakness depending on what is desired).

Rounds - Strengths - Brighter, more sustain, more harmonics and overtones.
Rounds - Weakness - Less fundamental. Thinner sound.

As we can see, rounds appear to really have the advantage over flats as there really isn't much of any weakness to them, except for a weaker fundamental which also makes them sound "thinner" (in direct comparison, not that rounds sound thin or weak). But let's look at what is really important in the realm of playing bass.

If you desire your bass to sound like a lower tuned guitar instead of as a pure bass sound, then rounds win hands down. But in a live mix with the whole band, there are other instruments that are also sharing sonic space with the higher end of the bass.

In the chart below, you can see where the bass sits.

Link Removed

Note that guitars only get as close to the bass spectrum somewhere between the bass' D and G strings. And that is only at the very bottom of the guitar end and the more upper end of the bass. Everything below that all belongs to the bass.

Think about that as it relates to the strengths of flats and rounds. Overtones, harmonics and the brightness characteristic strengths of roundwound strings are not a part of the bass (only) realm. After the initial pluck of a string, the harmonics of the note take over. So when you first pluck an open E on a bass it sends out a strong 41Hz, but then as it decays it relies more on the the harmonic content (82Hz and up).

The overtones and brightness that rounds are noted for and desired also are not in the bass (only) realm. That sizzle, grit and piano-like brilliance are a part of the frequency range that is also shared with the guitars. Thus the need for tweeters and mid-range drivers in some bass cabs. In order for those "strengths" to be heard, they need to be boosted via EQ. In an already saturated frequency range, it is at times difficult to hear those very strengths of roundwounds. This is an area that requires boosting in order to "cut through"

But in looking at the strengths of flatwounds, one can see that both, the stronger fundamental and quicker decay, are advantageous. Because the fundamental of notes played on flatwounds are inherently stronger than rounds the bass is already heard quite easily along with the guitars that cannot get that low. Due to the quicker decay, lack of sustain and brightness (which are considered to be a weakness of flats) there is little contributing to the guitar frequency range. This gives more clarity and definition to both the bass and guitars because of less overlap of ranges.

Of course, if one wants those strengths of roundwounds to be heard, one must either EQ it stronger or increase the volume. This can lead to the volume wars between guitarists and bass players. What roundwounds excel at really falls into the guitar range and that is why you see so many "How can I cut through the mix" threads. That is why there are so many suggestions to "boost the mids", "avoid the smiley face EQ" and the ever present "what sounds good in the bedroom won't sound good onstage" comments. Nothing wrong with those suggestions and they are proven to work. Because one must do those things in order to hear the rich content inherent to roundwound strings. It just isn't as big a concern for flatwound players.

In the graph below you can see where bass fits (generally) in with the whole mix (ideally)...

Link Removed

While both flats and rounds cover the entire bass range, that pink area by itself is where flats really excel. It isn't that roundwounds aren't heard in that area because they are. But that is not where roundwounds excel. The area where it overlaps with the drums is still the rhythm section's territory so guitars still have little to no effect on the bass. The strength of rounds and what most players love about rounds falls more into the area that overlaps with the guitars sonic space. If you play roundwounds for the benefit of the brightness and sizzle or grit they offer, and you want to "find your tone" and have it be heard in the mix clearly, then you will be pushing that sound into the blue area of the guitars or the gold area of the vocals, or any number of other instruments that are already in that over saturated mid-range area in that chart. Flats don't excel or offer as much in that area and for flatwound users it is of little concern.

I'm not saying that rounds don't work as well because they obviously do, but to clearly hear what they have to offer, they do present more challenges in doing so regarding the overall mix of the band. But that is also why you can clearly hear that roundwound tone by itself, and why it often gets lost when the whole band is playing.

You can't get that bright sizzling sound or the sustain of a roundwound from a flat. You can use effects to increase sustain and some distortion to add some grit to them. You can't produce a stronger fundamental or a quicker decay from rounds than what a flatwound can, but you can boost those frequencies via EQ and you can use compression or technique to give a quicker decay. It's all about trade-offs and compromises and one can get each string type to cop some of the strengths of the other.

My feeling is, in a live setting with the band, and with the type of music we play...why fight it? I want my bass to sound like a bass and given where the frequency range of the bass lies versus where the guitar's is, flats work better for me in my situation. There is a difference between the two designs, and manufacturers would not still be making flatwounds if they did not have a strength that roundwounds don't fill as well.

They are both worthwhile and useful for a given application towards making music. But being aware of what they offer and how it fits with the whole spectrum of instruments onstage is worth looking into.

 

[dvh]

I'm with ya' Sundogue. My band, and especially drummer, have never been so pleased with our sound and proficiency since I switched to flats.

 

[MarkusBass]

Yup! That's why!

Not necessarily, and only you can decide for yourself.

But, the P-Bass (the pick-up itself along with it's placement, the simple bridge design, etc.) is inherently strong in the mids, so it really punches hard with flats. Of course it punches hard with rounds too.

Just imagine the sound you'd get from this setup...

Fender Precision strung with Flats going into an ALL Tube head and either the original 810 or 215's, cranked and driving a song with a solid drummer.

We're talking heavyweight notes here, not the tippy-tap of a lightweight soloist. PUNCH-YOU-IN-THE-CHEST kind of notes.

Your call.

 

[MarkusBass]

Thanks guys (all)...this thread is great....

I will put the Chromes on the P/J tonight during the Penguin/Red Wing game .... then i will expect pure thunder! >

I may try and bring it to the next rehearsal if the DiMarzio pups and flats dont shake the floor too much....we have alot of singers (leads and bkgd) on stage at the same time on most R&R songs we do.

Let us know how it goes!

 

[fenwickbacker]

I posted earlier in this thread (somewhere in Chapter 12, based on the length of this one - great topic). I had tried flats on my Geddy at one gig - was not overwhelmed.

Gigged last night w/ flats (LaBella Deep Talkin) on my newly acquired (used) Fender AV 57 P - WOW! Just seems like the right combo of bass and string.

I'm in a 9-piece w/ 4-pc horn section, guitar, keys, drum, vocal and me. We play 60's soul, 70's funk and New Orleans soul/funk. No question in my mind that this combo excelled in "my sonic space." Still have to get used to "losing" a bit of sound/volume (real or perceived) high up on the D and G string. A quick tone knob roll to treble side helped this out.

In all - great experience - I'll continue to A/B with the P and the Geddy to see how they respond at different gigs (big rooms, outside, etc.).

If nothing else, I think between my Geddy w/ Rounds and my P w/ flats - I can cover any gig situation.

 

[Sundogue]

I posted earlier in this thread (somewhere in Chapter 12, based on the length of this one - great topic). I had tried flats on my Geddy at one gig - was not overwhelmed.

Gigged last night w/ flats (LaBella Deep Talkin) on my newly acquired (used) Fender AV 57 P - WOW! Just seems like the right combo of bass and string.

I'm in a 9-piece w/ 4-pc horn section, guitar, keys, drum, vocal and me. We play 60's soul, 70's funk and New Orleans soul/funk. No question in my mind that this combo excelled in "my sonic space." Still have to get used to "losing" a bit of sound/volume (real or perceived) high up on the D and G string. A quick tone knob roll to treble side helped this out.

In all - great experience - I'll continue to A/B with the P and the Geddy to see how they respond at different gigs (big rooms, outside, etc.).

If nothing else, I think between my Geddy w/ Rounds and my P w/ flats - I can cover any gig situation.

Oh yeah, if I still had two basses, I'd have a P-Bass with flats and the other with rounds, no doubt about it.

 

[fenwickbacker]

The bigger surprise for me was returning to the P-bass . . . and loving it! My first bass (20 years ago) was a 32" scale Fender P standard, made in Japan. Played it for a few years before "getting tired of it's limitations" and beginning the quest "for something better." Went 5-string active, then jazz, then another jazz, then Ric, then Warwick, back to jazz, now back to the P (I've settled on the jazz and p . . . for now).

These two (both passive Fenders) work for me and the type of bassist I am. Again for now . . . GAS strikes without warning! Be ever vigilant!

 

[Surly]

I recently switched back to rounds from flats. I play a P-bass with a pick, with one guitarist and a drummer. My comparison of of the two....the flats fill in the low-mids with just bass, they aren't "heard" as much if that makes any sense. The rounds can do the same and also provide a little brightness and are "heard". Go to the Lakland site and listen to the Duck Dunn (P-bass) soundclips for an example. Either work for me, the just sound different. This is all assuming that you have an adequate amp in the first place in which it is possible to be heard. I think with a P-bass (especially with an SVT)you don't need flats to pump out mids. In a proper mix the bass should always do it's job.

 

[Sundogue]

I recently switched back to rounds from flats. I play a P-bass with a pick, with one guitarist and a drummer. My comparison of of the two....the flats fill in the low-mids with just bass, they aren't "heard" as much if that makes any sense. The rounds can do the same and also provide a little brightness and are "heard". Go to the Lakland site and listen to the Duck Dunn (P-bass) soundclips for an example. Either work for me, the just sound different. This is all assuming that you have an adequate amp in the first place in which it is possible to be heard. I think with a P-bass (especially with an SVT)you don't need flats to pump out mids. In a proper mix the bass should always do it's job.

I agree with you on the "felt and not heard" kind of thing going on. That is part of what I like about flats. For me it is kind of a zen-like thing going on with the drummer where I'm not interested in the least bit about melody and I'm only providing a rhythmic pulse.

I've gone from being a hardcore roundwound "find my tone" kind of player to the exact opposite direction where I don't even care about my tone, but rather how the rhythm section as a whole sounds. I really don't care if I can hear every subtle nuance to my playing because...1) There is nothing subtle about what I play and...2) I am consciously trying to simplify every line, down to the most basic and most necessary part needed for the song.

There are so many songs we play where we will get to a part and I will think about some cool little lick I've thrown in before and now I am so much more pleased with allowing the rest of the band more breathing space. It makes the music more dynamic. I'm not just playing root notes and I'm not talking about just dynamics, but rather being even more conscious than normal to how important simplicity is to rock music.

That brightness "to be heard" you related is exactly what I referred to in my post on frequencies. That is the sound of rounds that can be difficult to even hear in a larger/louder band setting. Those bright tones that you feel are so important to your sound (and I did too) no longer interest me and I find so unnecessary now (for me that is, in my current band). My bass sound is anything but dull, yet it is not bright either.

You also mentioned playing with only a drummer and single guitarist. Those bright sounds coming from the roundwounds are so much easier to hear in that context, and certainly worthwhile pursuing in your situation and I would likely do the same if I were in your shoes.

 

[One Drop]

To me, being interested in my tone means precisely being interested in how it sounds in a mix. People who chase a 'perfect' tone without that context are fighting themselves and their band from the outset.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned muted flats in this thread. Another incredibly useful tool in one's arsenal- the quicker decay makes for even rounder notes and seems to increase the thump. Great option for old soul, Motown, etc. I used to use foam under my strings on my P, now I put a bridge cover on with the rubber strip on to of the strings under the cover. Pure bouncy goodness!

 

[jasper383]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned muted flats in this thread. Another incredibly useful tool in one's arsenal- the quicker decay makes for even rounder notes and seems to increase the thump. Great option for old soul, Motown, etc. I used to use foam under my strings on my P, now I put a bridge cover on with the rubber strip on to of the strings under the cover. Pure bouncy goodness!

+1

Muted flats with a pick is a real treat if you've never done it.

Suddenly, the sound of hundreds of pop tunes is right there. I tried it recently on my Jazz Bass with GHS Precision Flats (with a wadded up paper towel taped over the strings by the bridge).

 

[Sundogue]

+1

Muted flats with a pick is a real treat if you've never done it.

Suddenly, the sound of hundreds of pop tunes is right there. I tried it recently on my Jazz Bass with GHS Precision Flats (with a wadded up paper towel taped over the strings by the bridge).

Get some of that door trim insulation foam. They sell it in rolls and you can get just about any thickness or width. Cut it into a section as wide as your bridge, and you can just stick it under your strings whenever you want that muted effect.