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Confusion about 7th chords

#41
People learn in different ways: visual, aural, numbers, words, etc.

Some people have memorized the name of every Dwarf and Elf in The Hobbit, if that type of personality finds it easier to remember Aeolian than Minor Scale or 1-2-b3-4-5-b6-b7 then I will not belittle the learning tool.
 
#44
dtsamples said:
I meant the notes within the chord. As in ii = 1, b3, 5




Fair enough. I'm not saying that I use modes either. I've only ever used them as a tool to understand how chords are built and why they're built the way they are. If you don't need 'em, more power to you, but they exist, so some people must have needed them for something at some point.

However, I see how it was wrong for me to say that you have to understand modes to understand chord structure. I should have said, "I need to understand modes to understand chord structure." Guess I can't speak for anyone else.
Click to expand...

Well Richard and others have some sort of jihad going against using modes in any discussion. To me, and you, and probably LOTS of others, using the modes to show how all 7 chords are constructed makes PERFECT SENSE. Those who quibble about this issue are constantly muddying the waters of threads like this. Just offer your alternate non-mode based explanation and be done with it. There is nothing wrong in any way with using the idea of the diatonic modes to explain how to assemble 7 chords.
 
#45
I have a question to everyone discussing modes in this thread. WHY?? the OP never once mentioned "mode".... The answer to his question does not require the inclusion of modes in any manner. Do any of you read the original post??? JFC. Stop it.
A mod should clean this thread up.
 
#46
HolmeBass said:
Well Richard and others have some sort of jihad going against using modes in any discussion.
Click to expand...

Sorry, this is utter rubbish. Either you didn't actually read what I wrote or you didn't understand it. Jihad? Really? I've said often (about 137 billion times, at a conservative estimate) that although THE WAY IN WHICH MODES ARE FREQUENTLY TAUGHT is pointless, modality when correctly understood is a real thing that describes real harmonic situations--truly modal music (nonfunctional harmony). It just happens that true modal situations, too often, are not the ones where modes tend to be dragged in. IOW, we frequently bring modes in where they're useless (as in diatonic functional harmony), but fail to bring them in when they actually ARE useful (as in truly modal music, like some folk tunes). THAT's what muddies the waters, not clarity and accuracy.

HolmeBass said:
To me, and you, and probably LOTS of others, using the modes to show how all 7 chords are constructed makes PERFECT SENSE. Those who quibble about this issue are constantly muddying the waters of threads like this. Just offer your alternate non-mode based explanation and be done with it. There is nothing wrong in any way with using the idea of the diatonic modes to explain how to assemble 7 chords.
Click to expand...

It's true that results matter more than you you get them. It's also true that what you describe is not some kind of moral defect or sin. No one has ever said it was.

It's also true, however, that compared to better explanations, it's a relatively cumbersome and needlessly complicated approach. Sort of like counting the number of cattle in a herd by counting the number of legs and dividing by 4. That kind of approach, even when it eventually yields the right answer, lacks simplicity and elegance, which IMO are desirable qualities of good explanations.
 
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#47
Schlyder said:
I have a question to everyone discussing modes in this thread. WHY?? the OP never once mentioned "mode".... The answer to his question does not require the inclusion of modes in any manner. Do any of you read the original post??? JFC. Stop it.
A mod should clean this thread up.
Click to expand...

Yeah, to remove your repeated instigation.

The OP isn't the only one who will visit this thread. Plenty of others who are confused about 7th chords will do a search and find this thread. They might be helped by the information contained therein.
 
#48
dtsamples said:
Yeah, to remove your repeated instigation.

The OP isn't the only one who will visit this thread. Plenty of others who are confused about 7th chords will do a search and find this thread. They might be helped by the information contained therein.
Click to expand...

Where did I bring modes into this thread?? obviously you have not read the entire thread, including the OP's original post.
 
#50
Schlyder said:
I have a question to everyone discussing modes in this thread. WHY?? the OP never once mentioned "mode".... The answer to his question does not require the inclusion of modes in any manner. Do any of you read the original post??? JFC. Stop it.
A mod should clean this thread up.
Click to expand...

Maj7 "fits" Ionian and Lydian
Dom7 fits Mixolydian
min7 fits Dorian, Phrygian, Aeolian
min7b5 fits Locrian

It is an intriguing tangent that is of interest to me (and possibly others). :)
 
#51
HolmeBass said:
Well Richard and others have some sort of jihad going against using modes in any discussion. To me, and you, and probably LOTS of others, using the modes to show how all 7 chords are constructed makes PERFECT SENSE. Those who quibble about this issue are constantly muddying the waters of threads like this. Just offer your alternate non-mode based explanation and be done with it. There is nothing wrong in any way with using the idea of the diatonic modes to explain how to assemble 7 chords.
Click to expand...

Yes, that is true, but why explain and define it over and over again? I think the most important thing is that you know how to play the appropriate arpeggio for the chord and use an appropriate mode for it (if that is your choice).

I once had the chance to talk to Jeff Baxter from the Doobie Brothers about playing with feeling verses technical playing. He told me the technical is what you do in practice to internalize all the stuff you need to know musically so when it comes time to play you can let your FEELINGS through without having to think about it. In essence, he was saying that the feeling was the most important part of music. Yes, you need to know how to play a Bb7 arpeggio, and it is cool to know that the mixolydian mode is a great way to play on it, but when you are in front of an audience doing your thing, do you really think to yourself....."oh, my we have two measures of Bb7 I'll have to utilize a mixolydian mode and blah, blah............."...no, you just play it and you've played it enough to know that it will sound cool and all the hot chicks will love your sound!!!:hyper:
 
#52
zekimert, please see my posts near the bottom of page 2..........................It is good information to answer your question, but since it does not have anything to do with modes it is being ignored...........I'm so sad.
 
#56
dtsamples said:
Better if you remove the "C" from the equation and just look how seventh chords are built.

Seventh chords are like regular triads, but with another 3rd interval on top.

Major 7 = 1,3,5,7
Dominant 7 (or just "7") = 1,3,5,b7
Minor 7 = 1,b3,5,b7

These chords are built around the Ionian, Mixolydian, and Dorian (or Phrygian, or Aolean) modes.

Ionian = 1,2,3,4,5,6,7
Mixolydian = 1,2,3,4,5,6,b7
Dorian = 1,2,b3,4,5,6,b7

So, just start on the root, and grab every other note and you have your seventh chords. Now if you want to add note names:

C Ionian = C,D,E,F,G,A,B
C Mixolydian = C,D,E,F,G,A,Bb
C Dorian = C,D,Eb,F,G,A,Bb

or if you want it in context:

C Ionian = C,D,E,F,G,A,B = I chord = Cmaj7
G Mixolydian = G,A,B,C,D,E,F = V(7) chord = G7
D Dorian = D,E,F,G,A,B,C = ii chord = Dmin7

If you use these chords and scales, you get the common jazz theme, ii - V(7) - I

The only thing difficult about this example is that since G Mix and D dor have all natural notes, it's hard to tell which notes are flattened compared to their respective Ionian modes.
Click to expand...


Boy, this really set off a total firestorm here! Why are people so against talking on "talk Central"? Isn't that the purpose of the forum?


Anyway, I never had any use for modes before, UNTIL I started using Moore's "Melodic playing in the thumb position" for double bass....and it has really opened my eyes to the modes. I am sure I played them all at one time or another without knowing which ones they were, but the book helped tie it all together.
 
#57
I find playing up and down all the modes of each of the common scale types to be very helpful in terms of building up general familiarity with them, and specifically because of the way they relate to harmonized seventh chords built from each scale. The harmonized seventh chords after all are subsets of the modes.

IMO looking at related pieces of information from several different ways is a more efficient way of learning than looking at it in just one way.

I do little of what I consider modal music, but I am a lot more facile with chords and with the less common keys because of running through modes. Given time, patterns emerge across all of these things. The modes help you see why the IV and VII have their altered 4ths and 5ths and to see these as necessary consequences of the major scales.

And when you venture from seventh chords to other types of harmonized chords in different keys, knowing the modes gives you a huge head start. You don't have to first think of things relative to one master scale in order to start considering, say, 6ths that you had not worked with before as components of harmonized chords; you can go right from where you are with each root, which IMO is a more efficient use of the mental tools at our disposal.

Not to pick any bones, but these things may be hard to evaluate for players that either haven't dealt with them in the past, or have dealt with them long enough ago that the original learning process, which varies anyway, is no longer a clear, linear memory.
 
#58
dtsamples said:
Well, if you don't reference the modes, it's harder to account for the shifting roots. If you build it all off the major scale, then

Major 7 = 1,3,5,7
Minor 7 = 2,4,6,1(8)
Dominant 7 = 5,7,9,11

Or you have to do this

.............[-------G7--------]
....[-----Dmin7-----]
[-----Cmaj7-----]
..............1......3......5.....b7
....1.....b3....5......b7
1......3.....5......7
C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 1

...and that was just a PITA to do, and it doesn't even look nice. Not the best way to explain theory on a text-based forum.

Either way, the trouble arises in that we use numerals to refer to the notes in the scale and the notes in the chord. People then get confused because they think 1 always refers to C.

True, you can explain this using C as the root in all examples, and then the note names reflect the flattened 3rd and 7ths, but that's not practical because, unless you're playing complex chord progressions, you aren't going to use Cmaj7, Cmin7, and C7 in the same song (at least not often). People learn different ways, but I found it easiest to understand 7ths (and to apply them practically) when I understood how the modes functioned relative to the major scale.

To me learning 7ths chords independent of the modes is like trying to learn cardiology independent of pulmonology or anatomy as a whole. You may know what a heart is, but you sure aren't going to be performing any surgery unless you understand how it functions in relation to the other systems.
Click to expand...

Oops, looks like I launched a grenade in this thread then ran away. Sorry.

This explanation of why you used modes to explain the concept makes sense. I just learnt it as chords bulit of notes of the scale. Makes it easier for me to remember that 1 6 2 5 is maj/minor/minor/dom, than to think about whatever mode, when I really just need to know which key I'm in.

I dragged this thread way off course, but hey, discussion forums are for discussions, right?
 
#60
Wow, just two days away from the forum and look what happened :D

First I have to say that I don't know how to use modes, but I am aware of the importance of them and I appreciate those people who got the knowledge.

Mushroo said:
I believe that someone, somewhere on the internet has an interesting argument why "Cmaj7 and C major 7 are completely different chords." A link would be helpful so we can properly debate this intriguing theory.... :)
Click to expand...

Actually we are in a conflict here with my friends in defining "C7", "C major 7" and "Cmaj7". I asked the same question in another forum, I collect slightly different answers comparing those I've get here.

In the turkish forum, almost everyone has agreed on the definition claiming:
(C7)
C için C, E, G ve Bb

Majör +7 or Maj7;
(CMaj7)
C için C, E, G, B

Minör 7
(Cm7, Cmin7)
C için C, Eb, G, Bb
Click to expand...

It says C7 is C major 7 = C dominant 7 which includes a Bb
and
Cmaj7 is something totally different, including a B in it.

And here's the link of the discussion topic (you can see the definition above has been given in the 3rd post)
Basgitarist.com >> Forums >> Bas Dersleri >> Yedili akorlarla ilgili bir soru


Johnny StingRay said:
zekimert, please see my posts near the bottom of page 2..........................
Click to expand...

I read your posts and attachments johnny, thanks a lot. Even I know the seventh chords in the way that you posted until now. But in here, people are strictly rejecting the definition of "major 7 and maj7 are the same".
 

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