Oh man, now we're getting in to temperament and cadences. I now see why bringing modes up bothers people. What's next, the overtone series?
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Confusion about 7th chords
- Thread starter zekimert
- Start date
I think the person who said "Cmaj7 and C major 7 are completely different from each other" is correct, but expressed themselves poorly.
I think what they were trying to say is that in Cmaj7, the 'major' refers to the 7 note of the scale - a Cmaj7 chord has a major 7th note - C-E-G-B - although it is not really the note that is major, but the interval - the distance between C and B is an interval of a 7th.
In 'C major 7', the 'major' refers to the chord - a C7 chord is a major chord with a flat 7 - C-E-G-Bb.
The confusion is that 'major' can refer to both a chord and an interval - but I don't think a C7 has ever been notated as a C major 7 - this is where the person expressed themselves poorly.
C7, or any 7 chord (that is, with a flat 7), is a dominant 7, but it is rarely called a dominant 7th, usually just a 7th chord - C7, G7, D7, etc.
In C minor 7, or Cmin7 or Cm7, the 'minor' refers to the chord, not the 7 - so it is a minor chord with a flat 7 - C-Eb-G-Bb.
There is no such thing as a minor note - notes are natural, sharp or flat - but you can have a major or minor interval, such as a major or minor third - which I won't get into right now, but intervals, thirds, fifths and triads are fundamental to understanding chords.
[QUOTE
In 'C major 7', the 'major' refers to the chord - a C7 chord is a major chord with a flat 7 - C-E-G-Bb.
QUOTE]
A C7 chord is DOMINANT. Not major. Sure it contains a major triad, but that doesn't make it a Major chord. It contains a diminished triad as well, but that doesn't make it a diminished chord, does it?
Dominant 7th chords, even though they have a major-ish sound to them due to the root, major 3rd, and perfect 5th. ..a major triad.... are simply "DOMINANT "chords.... nothing else.... they are that due to their harmonic function. The characteristic sound of a Dominant chord is that of a major triad with an added flat 7th.
You may describe a C7 chord as a C major Triad with an added flat 7th(Bb) for convenience and easy explanation... but to refer to a C7 chord as a major chord ...is incorrect and confusing to those still learning the basics of chord construction, harmonic function, and usage of correct terminology.
In 'C major 7', the 'major' refers to the chord - a C7 chord is a major chord with a flat 7 - C-E-G-Bb.
QUOTE]
A C7 chord is DOMINANT. Not major. Sure it contains a major triad, but that doesn't make it a Major chord. It contains a diminished triad as well, but that doesn't make it a diminished chord, does it?
Dominant 7th chords, even though they have a major-ish sound to them due to the root, major 3rd, and perfect 5th. ..a major triad.... are simply "DOMINANT "chords.... nothing else.... they are that due to their harmonic function. The characteristic sound of a Dominant chord is that of a major triad with an added flat 7th.
You may describe a C7 chord as a C major Triad with an added flat 7th(Bb) for convenience and easy explanation... but to refer to a C7 chord as a major chord ...is incorrect and confusing to those still learning the basics of chord construction, harmonic function, and usage of correct terminology.
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Incorrect. Some minor chords have a major 7th, or no 7th at all.
Thanks! Assuming the maj7 ones aren't as common lol
(
Well, if you play jazz they are extremely common. The melodic minor is the Dorian mode with a natural 7th instead of the usual flat 7th. It's that natural 7th in the context of a minor scale that gives you access to a bunch of altered tones when you solo over certain chords. It's normally used over dominant chords, because dominants have the most tension so they lend themselves to being altered in various ways.
So if you want to solo over say, A7 #9#5, you can play the melodic minor scale that's a half step UP from the A7 (B flat melodic minor) and you will have instant access to all those altered tones (plus a bunch more). That is called the "altered scale" because using it that way gives you every possible altered chord tone, within a single scale. If you want to use a scale that is not so "outside" sounding, you can play the melodic minor UP a 5th (so play E melodic minor over the A7) or you can play the melodic minor UP a 4th for a different set of sounds/colors (play D melodic minor over A7).
This is a basic way of using melodic minor.
The harmonic minor is just the Aeolian mode, with a natural 7th, vice the flat 7th. You use it differently than the melodic minor.
Well, if you play jazz they are extremely common. The melodic minor is the Dorian mode with a natural 7th instead of the usual flat 7th. It's that natural 7th in the context of a minor scale that gives you access to a bunch of altered tones when you solo over certain chords. It's normally used over dominant chords, because dominants have the most tension so they lend themselves to being altered in various ways.
So if you want to solo over say, A7 #9#5, you can play the melodic minor scale that's a half step UP from the A7 (B flat melodic minor) and you will have instant access to all those altered tones (plus a bunch more). That is called the "altered scale" because using it that way gives you every possible altered chord tone, within a single scale. If you want to use a scale that is not so "outside" sounding, you can play the melodic minor UP a 5th (so play E melodic minor over the A7) or you can play the melodic minor UP a 4th for a different set of sounds/colors (play D melodic minor over A7).
This is a basic way of using melodic minor.
The harmonic minor is just the Aeolian mode, with a natural 7th, vice the flat 7th. You use it differently than the melodic minor.
Thank you! I'm going to have to learn this so I can see when I can apply it. I play mostly praise and worship but I'm sure I can find somewhere to play with this.
Yeah, you probably can, and it's worth exploring. I'm just starting to get my head wrapped around using melodic/harmonic minors. But I play a lot of jazz so it's pretty much expected, so you can sound like you're making the changes and not just playing in a key center kind of way. Although I do that a lot, lol.
But in a praise setting, you might have to consider your audience, so playing a lot of "outside" stuff might get you some "what are you doing" looks, lol. But it's definitely info worth knowing.
Another place you will find minor chords with major 7ths is in the common descending-bass progression that goes kind of like this:
Cmin Cmin/B Cmin/Bb Cmin/A etc.
which could also be notated
Cmin Cmin(maj7) Cmin7 Cmin6
You can hear this kind of progression in standard pop/jazz repertoire like "My Funny Valentine" (where it then goes to an Ab major chord iirc). I am not familiar with the praise genre but I bet you might even find this progression in some churchy-type songs, too.
Cmin Cmin/B Cmin/Bb Cmin/A etc.
which could also be notated
Cmin Cmin(maj7) Cmin7 Cmin6
You can hear this kind of progression in standard pop/jazz repertoire like "My Funny Valentine" (where it then goes to an Ab major chord iirc). I am not familiar with the praise genre but I bet you might even find this progression in some churchy-type songs, too.
